Question about black dye and sanding-back

[todd4946]

Hey all,

This is my first time dying a carved top (my first carved top build, actually). My plan was to dye with black transtint, then sand back, then dye with either blue or green transtint, followed by lacquer clear coats. I used black transtint powder, dissolved in warm water and filtered through a paper towel. I've dyed it black twice, and sanded back with 220.

I'm concerned about the tiny black dots that are left over after sanding back. I've wiped down with naptha, and it doesn't look like this would look good under finish. I also prepared a test piece, did the black/sandback/green dye, and it still looks bad under naptha.

is the black spotting normal, and something that will disappear under the top coats? Or do i need to sand deeper/start with lower grit? Dilute the black more? filter the black better? Any advice?

Thanks!

 

[Berserkr696]

Looks like you didn't sand well enough before you stained the top, stain will accentuate any scratches or marks that are left. I'd sand the top until the marks dissapear and try again.

It's a nice looking top though!

 

[sdshirtman]

I don't think those dots are going anywhere. It's part of the grain and part of what makes that piece unique. Once you get the color on there and get it all finished it will look great.

 

[todd4946]

Thanks for the responses. I decided to go ahead and sand/scrape back once more. I tuned up the scraper and have already seen better results. We'll see how it goes . Side question about scraping (quilted maple in this case): I've heard that too fine a finish on bare wood can interfere with lacquer adherence. It seems the scraper almost burnishes the surface in some areas. Should I follow the scraper with 320 or some such before dying?

 

[B. Howard]

It will be the surface that is left after the dye is sanded back that the lacquer will anchor to. That is where you need some tooth and that will get taken care of when you sand the dye back.

 

[H.E.L.Shane]

I would like to suggest you alter your plan...

the idea of using black and sanding back is to "pop" the grain.

If you do this, and then apply another dye to the wood, the effect isn't going to be as vibrant as you envision.

Sand back the black, and then apply one or two coats of thinned clear lacquer.. about 20%.. as a sealer.
Then, mix a transparent toner coat of the blue or green, again thinned about 20%, and spray that until you are satisfied with the color depth.
Spray one more coat of the clear thinned and take care of any dust nibs or other imperfections, and then start your build coats.

By separating the black from the toner colors, you add depth to the finish, and your results will be much much better.
Staining another color over top of the black dye makes the color darker in the area where the black dye is still in the wood, but, it doesn’t add the depth and the finish will look fairly flat, and possibly a bit muddy in the areas where the black dye remains.

(take a piece of scrap, dye it… sand it back, spray sealer on one side and top coat it with the toner, the other side apply the colored dye over the bare wood and then give it all a good clear.. and you will see what I’m talking about)

 

[emoney]

And the award for "Best Advice in This Thread" goes to.....HEL SHane.

 

[solteroblues]

great advice, Shane, but what if you weren't planning on spraying anything? Don't mean to hijack, but I want to do a hand applied finish, as spraying just isn't something I want to do (I did it on my last build and it came out great, just wanted to try something different this time). I want to dye black, sand back, and then dye with my top coat, but my finish will be tru-oil or some other hand applied wiping finish.

 

[MRJ5]

great advice, Shane, but what if you weren't planning on spraying anything? Don't mean to hijack, but I want to do a hand applied finish, as spraying just isn't something I want to do (I did it on my last build and it came out great, just wanted to try something different this time). I want to dye black, sand back, and then dye with my top coat, but my finish will be tru-oil or some other hand applied wiping finish.

Your answer is in the post. That is experience speaking. You can choose to find out on your own however.

By separating the black from the toner colors, you add depth to the finish, and your results will be much much better.
Staining another color over top of the black dye makes the color darker in the area where the black dye is still in the wood, but, it doesn’t add the depth and the finish will look fairly flat, and possibly a bit muddy in the areas where the black dye remains.

(take a piece of scrap, dye it… sand it back, spray sealer on one side and top coat it with the toner, the other side apply the colored dye over the bare wood and then give it all a good clear.. and you will see what I’m talking about)

 

[H.E.L.Shane]

great advice, Shane, but what if you weren't planning on spraying anything? Don't mean to hijack, but I want to do a hand applied finish, as spraying just isn't something I want to do (I did it on my last build and it came out great, just wanted to try something different this time). I want to dye black, sand back, and then dye with my top coat, but my finish will be tru-oil or some other hand applied wiping finish.

Sadly, you're limited by the method..

you could TRY to french polish method, stain, sand back, add a couple coats of sealer , then add dye to the shellac or tru oil and rub a couple coats until you get your depth.. then continue with undyed finish..

I would try this on scrap though..... the problem is that, with shellac at least, each successive coat will mix a bit with the under coat

I've done a french polish finish with shellac before, and i could see it working for a burst type finish, but i would think it might be impossible to get the color coat the same density over the entire guitar with this method.

with a hand rubbed finish, the most effective way to do it is honestly, what the original poster described.. dye black, sand back, dye the color, start in with the rubbed finish.

 

[todd4946]

This forum is the best! . Thanks again for the help. Sounds like the HVLP system I've been trying to justify may be in my future

 

[mountainwhimsy]

You don't need much for a spray system. A small pancake compressor and detail gun works fine as long as you are not trying to spray big areas. I have little 6 gallon pancake that came with 2 nail guns and a staple gun on sale for about $150 a few years ago. It's great to have in the shop and does fine for spraying an occasional guitar. Don't let the flow rates scare you away.

 

[Jmorris]

A cheap hvlp with a good selection of tips will do a fine job. When I say cheap, I don't mean harbor freight cheap. You can get a pretty good spray gun for about 75 bucks from most automotive suppliers.

 

[emoney]

Actually, you can hand rub the color coats directly on without the need to "enhance" the figure.
Since your hand application is wet, it will raise the grain on the first coat. This one I'd "knock back"
by sanding and then apply subsequent coats to build the deepness of the color. It should
provide that enhanced look you're after, but it's always best to experiment on a piece of
scrap of the same material before proceeding to confirm it's what you're after.

WHile a horrible picture, this is a hand-rubbed finish;

RIT Dye mixed in water applied directly to the Maple. No "enhancement" involved.

 

[todd4946]

That's a beautiful finish e$. I've got mine pretty well sanded and scraped back again, but I'm gonna try to spend some time prepping and experimenting on couple more test boards this weekend. Fun stuff this finishing

 

[todd4946]

OK, patience is not one of my virtues, which I realize is not good for an aspiring luthier. BUT, i'm pretty happy with these results. so far This pic is after another application of black dye (not as thick this time, and only a single coat). Sanded back with 320, then applied stewmac blue dye (about 6 ml to 1 oz water, I think). Looks way better than the previous tests i had done with the green. we'll see. At worst, i'm getting good practice sanding back with a ROS.

 

[Skyjerk]

OK, patience is not one of my virtues, which I realize is not good for an aspiring luthier. BUT, i'm pretty happy with these results. so far This pic is after another application of black dye (not as thick this time, and only a single coat). Sanded back with 320, then applied stewmac blue dye (about 6 ml to 1 oz water, I think). Looks way better than the previous tests i had done with the green. we'll see. At worst, i'm getting good practice sanding back with a ROS.

Now yer gettin somewhere! I like it. I've been considering a similar finish for my next build.
Looks similar to PRS whale blue, at least in that shot...

 

[emoney]

Todd, patience is a "learned trait" and I don't have much of it either, lol.
But ,that looks good and the clear coats will deepen the color. Plus, like you said, the worst
thing that happens is you sand it all back and start over.

 

[Skyjerk]

Todd, patience is a "learned trait" and I don't have much of it either, lol.
.

Me either. Thats why large power tools, and spraying gear is essential to any success I may achieve in guitar building.

Even with all that it takes a lot of patience.

Without it? Well, if I was Barnaby I'd never get through a single build before saying "**** This Shit" and doing something else