PSA: Willcutt's Sell One Month Old Used Murphy Lab Defect as New

LtDave32

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Thanks for clearing this up for me- you’re just an asshole looking for a fight. Stop projecting and go join a boxing gym.


The mod said, "that's enough".

But you decided to continue.

several minutes after he said to cool it.

So now WE have to come in and make so you can't continue.

Enjoy your vacation.


Note to all concerned: I'm seeing trouble all too often.

@tototo , this isn't the first time. You are now on the radar. I don't want to see you involved in some trouble again. Learn to get along.

End of story.

Back to thread.
 

Brek

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Well, 'that escalated quickly' springs to mind. One thing this specific isssue highlights during covid and not discussed so far, is the definition of 'new' may need to change. What this store has done is nothing more/less that i have seen many stores do, in many different market segments.

this whole thing has taken a unpleasant turn and it all started with a post that was not entirely accurate in the first place ref the 'scratch' touted as 'finish flaking off'.
 

Duane_the_tub

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I Absolutely Love My Murphy Lab Aged Guitar... One of "THE BEST" Reissues I've Ever Had and I Owned Over 100 Reissues As Well as 12 HM's...My ML Will Hang With the Best I Ever Owned...! If You Have One and Don't Like it...? Are You Butthurt Because a Flake of Paint Came off? Or the Paint Isn't Slick Enough for You? You have a Bad Case of Buyers Remorse? Pull Your Big Boy Pants Up Grow a Set of Nuts and Return it or Sell it For Christ's Sake already .... But Please For The Love of Pete, Change The Broken Fucking Record...! Most People Shitting on This Thread Have Never Even Strummed One, Let Alone Owned One Long Enough to Make a Valid Comment...Un-Fucking-Real... As My Buddy @jenton70 Said His ML Is on Par With His Great White Buffalo R9, He Considers This To Be Probably The Best R9 He Ever Owned, and I Guarantee He has Owned More Reissues Than Me,,, You,,, or Anyone Else on This Forum, I Guarantee It, That Statement Right There Speaks in Volumes to Me...!
That's an R8, actually.
 

mudface

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No, actually my perspective is very common

The perspective is equally common on both sides of the relic concept... it’s why it seems so volatile of a subject.... like heavy gauge strings, pickguards on or off,... trannys,...

Like it or not.... its just a finish option.... and like all finishes it depends on the final result..... that is why there are a dozen different tea-burst....lemon-burst...dark-burst.... or whatever-burst.

The nuances of aging can be just as selective..... and opinionated.

No matter how LOUD or foul your opinion is.....doesn’t make your opinion any better then someone else’s..... it’s just another opinion.

If the OP wants to return 6 MLs.... it’s his choice whether he had a legitimate complaint or buyers remorse. He was allowed to do it for any reason.

Though it’s the dealers prerogative to do what they want with that return.... not ours.

Even if it seems Slim Shady.
 

calieng

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The perspective is equally common on both sides of the relic concept... it’s why it seems so volatile of a subject.... like heavy gauge strings, pickguards on or off,... trannys,...

Like it or not.... its just a finish option.... and like all finishes it depends on the final result..... that is why there are a dozen different tea-burst....lemon-burst...dark-burst.... or whatever-burst.

The nuances of aging can be just as selective..... and opinionated.

No matter how LOUD or foul your opinion is.....doesn’t make your opinion any better then someone else’s..... it’s just another opinion.

If the OP wants to return 6 MLs.... it’s his choice whether he had a legitimate complaint or buyers remorse. He was allowed to do it for any reason.

Though it’s the dealers prerogative to do what they want with that return.... not ours.

Even if it seems Slim Shady.

Point of clarification - I did not want to return those guitars. They were some of the best Les Pauls I have ever owned.

Also the dealers did not argue the matter at all - one questioned it at first but after talking to Gibson sent a return label immediately.

Gibson has known about this for a while and I think most of the bigger Gibson dealers were aware of this for a while too.

Willcutts did not even respond to my email about the defect - they just sent a return label. Other dealers at least apologized for the trouble I had.

I hope that explains things a little better. I loved those guitars and I hope the ones I still have do not develop problems because they are great. My beef is with Gibson sticking their head in the sand and hoping some of us might just keep these defective guitars. They need to get on Twitter or Facebook or somewhere to clearly announce there was a problem and explain which guitars are effected and the refund, return, and repair process.

As far as buyers remorse - If I decide I no longer want a guitar it ends up on Reverb not back to the dealer. The only remorse I have is reading some of these posts.
 
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VictorB

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The next hint of an argument in here will result in a vacation.

And not just from this thread.
 

irocdave12

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Relisting the guitar as new again to avoid the hassle of the return and warranty process is friggin lame no doubt. Here’s my take on this situation. It’s early on in the whole development of the ML finish problems/defects and I hope and want to believe Gibson will get a handle on this before PR stuff gets out of hand. We know with the new management that they are reading and monitoring the big forums like ours. So they no doubt are aware of what’s going on and what is being said. We also know that is exactly the kind of thing they don’t want and vowed to change.So now this is pretty much their shit or get off the pot moment IMO. They could very easily make this right. Yes they would have to take it on the chin and eat the $ on a bunch of guitars. But unlike before they have positioned themselves to minimize that with the Reverb Demo shop they got going. So it’s a natural answer to this problem for Gibson is to get their hands back on as many of these ML guitars as possible and replace them for the owners with corrected finish formula guitars and honestly and openly sell off the returns through the Demo shop which they will have absolutely no problem being successful in doing. There is a definite market for these unique history guitars and plenty of buyers who will be happy to live with the finish issues provided they know what they are getting and what likely to expect. So my hope is Gibson can do pretty much as I laid out and can turn around this unfortunate debut of the ML line and salvage it before it’s reputation is completely destroyed by the bad press.
 
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Zoli77

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When you buy a reliced guitar what exactly is "premature aging". Your buying a guitar they "age" for you, in advance of time, right?

So, they seemingly beat the shit of out of a new guitar without any rhyme or reason, other than telling you that their manner of doing so is what you should rely on as "mature aging". You order a Murphy Lab and get what you pay for. Some new manager at some unknown and undisclosed music store does not know diddly squat about what is right or correct that Gibson did regarding what their ML is shipping out the door. He is new, right? And likely will not last there long taking back guitars that should have had a 15% return fee added on. Nuff said.

The moral of the story is just as skydog clearly laid out. He very correctly called a spade a spade. You buy a relic, and then due to buyers remorse, hair up your ass, etc, you choose to dump the perceived "problem" on someone else. You play it for 30 days so it is knowingly used, and then kick the can down the road onto someone else's yard. Instead of making this a big issue, the person returning this relic should have manned up. As he says now, he is not buying any more relics. The problem here is pumped up egos, and a pumped up vision of self worth. Time to get over yourself. We are all grown men here. So, you're going to go onto YouTube and make a video. Who gives a shit? Go and do it. Nothing more than playground sandbox reactions.

Gibson has always been worthy of our business. They make a hand made product. When you lay your money down it is buyer beware. Never been any different, except maybe in a bedtime story or a video game. And, ML is the snake here. It is their nature. You knew what it was when you picked it up.
I Absolutely Love My Murphy Lab Aged Guitar... One of "THE BEST" Reissues I've Ever Had and I Owned Over 100 Reissues As Well as 12 HM's...My ML Will Hang With the Best I Ever Owned...! If You Have One and Don't Like it...? Are You Butthurt Because a Flake of Paint Came off? Or the Paint Isn't Slick Enough for You? You have a Bad Case of Buyers Remorse? Pull Your Big Boy Pants Up Grow a Set of Nuts and Return it or Sell it For Christ's Sake already .... But Please For The Love of Pete, Change The Broken Fucking Record...! Most People Shitting on This Thread Have Never Even Strummed One, Let Alone Owned One Long Enough to Make a Valid Comment...Un-Fucking-Real... As My Buddy @jenton70 Said His ML Is on Par With His Great White Buffalo R9, He Considers This To Be Probably The Best Reissue He Ever Owned, and I Guarantee He has Owned More Reissues Than Me,,, You,,, or Anyone Else on This Forum, I Guarantee It, That Statement Right There Speaks in Volumes to Me...!

Mod you shouldn’t dump the thread because this is some genius trolling....... made a few minutes of the day for me, at least.
Calieng I think by now everybody understands ( I hope the trolls too) that you returned it because you are worried the whole body is going to flake and then it would be too late to do anything. If the guitar is incredible I would keep it but we’re talking about 5, Jesus, I understand, and you kept like 6. They can attack you that you went overboard with buying too many but that’s your right, I believe that you didn’t buy them and then found a excuse to return them.
Reliced historics have been here for awhile and they don’t dump the paint, of course anybody who buys them expect them to look the same plus some extra dings that nobody can’t tell you did. I have a new R8 and with my past record it’s going to get dinged, so a relic would save me some head butting the wall, lol.
I went to a store that had a few ML’s and those were flaking too but only at the neck joint, so it is widespread.........pageburst won’t return it, agree, I wouldn’t either, still these are expensive so it is annoying that this happens, and again 5 guitars.
So if it would be sure that it doesn’t spread I don’t think many would return it but then again of you bought a light relic for 10 grand maybe you don’t want a heavy relic in 6 months.
Man I wrote a lot but 4 threads do make you think lol.
Peace
 

calieng

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Mod you shouldn’t dump the thread because this is some genius trolling....... made a few minutes of the day for me, at least.
Calieng I think by now everybody understands ( I hope the trolls too) that you returned it because you are worried the whole body is going to flake and then it would be too late to do anything. If the guitar is incredible I would keep it but we’re talking about 5, Jesus, I understand, and you kept like 6. They can attack you that you went overboard with buying too many but that’s your right, I believe that you didn’t buy them and then found a excuse to return them.
Reliced historics have been here for awhile and they don’t dump the paint, of course anybody who buys them expect them to look the same plus some extra dings that nobody can’t tell you did. I have a new R8 and with my past record it’s going to get dinged, so a relic would save me some head butting the wall, lol.
I went to a store that had a few ML’s and those were flaking too but only at the neck joint, so it is widespread.........pageburst won’t return it, agree, I wouldn’t either, still these are expensive so it is annoying that this happens, and again 5 guitars.
So if it would be sure that it doesn’t spread I don’t think many would return it but then again of you bought a light relic for 10 grand maybe you don’t want a heavy relic in 6 months.
Man I wrote a lot but 4 threads do make you think lol.
Peace


I returned 6 and kept 9. The 9 I kept did not have the dark cherry back. The ones I returned were unfortunately the best of the bunch other than the finish issue.

The reason I returned them quickly was exactly as you say to get out of a potentially bad situation with a lot of guitars. What if all of them ended up going bad? They still might? Who knows. But $100k was too much to have into questionable gear. I needed to at least reduce my potential loss on these.

As an engineer with a background in materials testing (I am not saying I know everything - some people have a chip on their shoulder...) I have experience testing thin films that usually need to last at least 25 years and often much longer. I could see this only progressing to a much worse condition on these guitars and I did not feel I could return after more than 2 months. I would probably be into just a repair at that point. So I had to act quick once a dealer confirmed what I thought was happening.

So that is more of the story.

Here is one of the returns...buyers remorse on this one - no way - one of the best I have ever owned. It was a sad day boxing this one up to return.

01433_lg6.jpg
 

Haprom

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Mod you shouldn’t dump the thread because this is some genius trolling....... made a few minutes of the day for me, at least.
Calieng I think by now everybody understands ( I hope the trolls too) that you returned it because you are worried the whole body is going to flake and then it would be too late to do anything. If the guitar is incredible I would keep it but we’re talking about 5, Jesus, I understand, and you kept like 6. They can attack you that you went overboard with buying too many but that’s your right, I believe that you didn’t buy them and then found a excuse to return them.
Reliced historics have been here for awhile and they don’t dump the paint, of course anybody who buys them expect them to look the same plus some extra dings that nobody can’t tell you did. I have a new R8 and with my past record it’s going to get dinged, so a relic would save me some head butting the wall, lol.
I went to a store that had a few ML’s and those were flaking too but only at the neck joint, so it is widespread.........pageburst won’t return it, agree, I wouldn’t either, still these are expensive so it is annoying that this happens, and again 5 guitars.
So if it would be sure that it doesn’t spread I don’t think many would return it but then again of you bought a light relic for 10 grand maybe you don’t want a heavy relic in 6 months.
Man I wrote a lot but 4 threads do make you think lol.
Peace

You aren't Kidding about the Trolling! But definitely Not From a Genius... ROTFLMMAO...
 

Pageburst

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I’d buy this one if it’s up for sale again. I missed out on it originally. That looks like a Wildwood guitar Calieng.

I understand your desire to reduce your exposure to these. I think the finish issue, if the worst case scenario materializes, will reduce the resale price of these guitars by 10-20% in addition to any typical depreciation.


I returned 6 and kept 9. The 9 I kept did not have the dark cherry back. The ones I returned were unfortunately the best of the bunch other than the finish issue.

The reason I returned them quickly was exactly as you say to get out of a potentially bad situation with a lot of guitars. What if all of them ended up going bad? They still might? Who knows. But $100k was too much to have into questionable gear. I needed to at least reduce my potential loss on these.

As an engineer with a background in materials testing (I am not saying I know everything - some people have a chip on their shoulder...) I have experience testing thin films that usually need to last at least 25 years and often much longer. I could see this only progressing to a much worse condition on these guitars and I did not feel I could return after more than 2 months. I would probably be into just a repair at that point. So I had to act quick once a dealer confirmed what I thought was happening.

So that is more of the story.

Here is one of the returns...buyers remorse on this one - no way - one of the best I have ever owned. It was a sad day boxing this one up to return.

View attachment 545603
I think Calieng was considerate to inform us about the guitar at Wilcutt
 

LeftyF2003

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This all boils down to how much damage is too much damage for a relic guitar.

Gibson have tens of millions of dollars worth of stock that they would have to repair/replace if they admit any fault. When you buy a reliced guitar, you know you are buying something that is damaged on purpose so what's the problem if a bit of finish (that is already damaged) comes away?

We need lawyers! :)

This - if you're paying for an "aged" guitar, what is considered damage? Is it any finish checking that lifts away from the guitar? Is it when you can feel the aging while playing? And isn't that the point of aging?
 

mudface

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Point of clarification - I did not want to return those guitars. They were some of the best Les Pauls I have ever owned.

Also the dealers did not argue the matter at all - one questioned it at first but after talking to Gibson sent a return label immediately.

Gibson has known about this for a while and I think most of the bigger Gibson dealers were aware of this for a while too.

Willcutts did not even respond to my email about the defect - they just sent a return label. Other dealers at least apologized for the trouble I had.

I hope that explains things a little better. I loved those guitars and I hope the ones I still have do not develop problems because they are great. My beef is with Gibson sticking their head in the sand and hoping some of us might just keep these defective guitars. They need to get on Twitter or Facebook or somewhere to clearly announce there was a problem and explain which guitars are effected and the refund, return, and repair process.

As far as buyers remorse - If I decide I no longer want a guitar it ends up on Reverb not back to the dealer. The only remorse I have is reading some of these posts.

I do believe that you have legitimate reason for returning your MLs...... others here obviously don't. I just generalized the reason for your returns as you had the clear right to do so for any reason. Though some like to piss and moan regardless and really don't have anything to add. That was my point. I found it quite unfair to you.

I would say that if you could provide a screen shot of your correspondence with the dealer who provided the apology and explanation would add some credibility to your story. I don't need no such proof but others seem to.

I will say that it's my opinion that there was some remorse in having to send back several instruments that you rather not have. I can't imagine what i would have felt,...especially with the small fortune that was involved here.

Good luck with future ML purchases,...and enjoy the ones you kept.
 

calieng

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I am not providing a screen shot of someones personal message to me. It is private and I also do not want them to have any trouble with Gibson. I already posted a redacted copy of the message earlier in this thread. Other discussions were by phone and those dealers just said sorry for the guitar getting out the door without them noticing the issue etc. I have already shared way more about my personal business than I am comfortable with for the sole purpose of trying to help the rest of the owners on here. If you choose not to believe me then that is your choice and I am fine with that knowing that I at least tried to help you.

Here is the message again explaining the finish issue from a major dealer.



Hi, Chris!

Thanks so much for reaching out! The XXX Team hopes you're having a safe and spectacular Friday! XXX here, Brand Manager at XXX, and I just so happen to manage the Gibson line! XXX has been in meetings all morning, but we discussed your situation and he asked that I personally reach out and assist.

First, I'd like to apologize for the issues you're having with your Murphy Lab instruments. We are currently in contact with Tom and the Custom Shop to get their input and thoughts. This is a very unique situation, in that it's not actually an issue with the lacquer formula. but rather, it's an issue with a specific batch of aniline dye/pore filler used during the staining process of the back and neck. Apparently, instead of hardening to a more concrete-like substance, the dye mixture stayed more like a dry powder, floating on top of the instrument, which prevented the lacquer from properly adhering to the instrument itself, and resulting in flaking after the aging process. The darker the aniline dye filler, the more aniline dye mixture being used and therefore, the more susceptible the instrument is to flaking.

We want to make sure you're 100% thrilled with your purchase, so we're more than willing to help however we can. Currently, Gibson Custom is willing to refinish any instruments with this issue, free of charge, so these would certainly qualify, should you allow them to proceed. Our understanding is that this is a relatively small pool of instruments. Otherwise, we are of COURSE more than happy to send call tags your way to return these. Keep in mind, we have several phenomenal XXX incoming, and we'd also be more than happy to give you first look and do an exchange for you. I can confirm that the issue has been addressed and that instruments currently in production will not have these issues moving forward.

Let me know what helps and what works best for YOU. We want to make sure you're taken care of, and I'm happy to personally assist you on the journey.

All the best from the entire team-
 

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