Preventive inserts for head breakage

[Lesterdelphia]

Ornetts (MIJ) did their truss rods with the adjustment in the neck pickup cavity. They were also making the Greco guitars in the early 2000s.

View attachment 508124

I recall seeing some Greco LP's a few years back with the truss rod access at the butt of the neck but there was also a small channel cut into the end of the fret board and an easy to access "spoke wheel adjuster" (very similar to what is used on Ernie Ball Music Man guitars). It's probably the best system in that it leaves the headstock much stronger and allows very easy access to make adjustments, which can be done with just about anything that fits into the spoke hole. Of course, like many others, I looked at this as some sort of cheapening or deviation from tradition instead of seeing it for the improvement that it actually is. That being said, being a home/basement hobbyist, my Edwards LP130 ALS always stays in its hardshell TKL case except when it's being played...so not an issue for me.

 

[Roxy13]

I recall seeing some Greco LP's a few years back with the truss rod access at the butt of the neck but there was also a small channel cut into the end of the fret board and an easy to access "spoke wheel adjuster" (very similar to what is used on Ernie Ball Music Man guitars). It's probably the best system in that it leaves the headstock much stronger and allows very easy access to make adjustments, which can be done with just about anything that fits into the spoke hole. Of course, like many others, I looked at this as some sort of cheapening or deviation from tradition instead of seeing it for the improvement that it actually is. That being said, being a home/basement hobbyist, my Edwards LP130 ALS always stays in its hardshell TKL case except when it's being played...so not an issue for me.

You aren't the only one that sees it as a deviation. Those Grecos often sell for very low prices compared to the ones made in the 70s, 80s and 90s. I don't think it would bother me and I'll probably buy one sometime.

I keep them all in cases when they aren't being played.

 

[Marshall_Stack]

Repair in process video.
I like the comment he makes part way through that if you want to play these guitars, you are taking on that risk, "that's just the way it is".

4:30 of this video kills me.
Dry Canadian humor.

 

[SGH]

I've owned many Gibsons since 1968, my first an SG standard I bought new for $369. plus $119 for the gold velour violin case. I've never cracked a headstock until 2 years ago when I gently knocked over a wonderful replica on a stand face down on a carpeted floor. Sproing! As someone said the design is prone to this. We see these guitars on the internet all the time. I believe the string tension is at least 1/2 the equation. The sound my LP Special replica made when it hit the carpet was not a sudden sound of cracking, it was an extended sound of the strings expanding and contracting like a spring. I believe this amplifies the force. The neck did not break off, but cracked about 3/4 of the way across. Simple repair with clamp and glue, and the face of the headstock is unblemished, but the back, of course is visible though the finish, even though finisihed smooth. When a neck is subjected to a blow, the string tension is not even, with the heavy strings exerting more rebound force, which I believe imparts a twisting moment. Loosening the strings, and supporting the headstock during shipping is recommended. Also, PUT THAT GUITAR BACK IN IT'S CASE!

 

[edro]

Folks, as a general rule, do not like change... Just is....

Wouldn’t matter what Gib did to alleviate Gib neck pop, folks would hate it... Better would not enter into the equation with many....

Me? I love innovation... Made mondo chippies sitting behind a Rhodes in the old days... Heard a DW8000 Rhodes patch and I dumped that heavy ass oblong anchor and starting buying Korgs... My first DW8000 is in the back room...

I dig change.... Class D amps are mondo cool.... When I started with a soundco as a young teen, we had DC300As.... Like toting a VW.... Now, the shipping box weighs more than the amp...

Levi can do whatever he wants at Gib for the better as far as I’m concerned.

 

[martin H]

True that. I don’t see an issue with scarfs as they’ve done it on old high dollars.... but that don’t matter... Folks would raise hell...

Carbon blades or rods lami’d in and there would be torches and pitchforks... Imagine an ALL Bakelite one chunk neck... They’d hang Levi.

I thinks you've identified the problem right there . The Les Paul demopgraphisc is so conservative regarding the instrument that nothing can be done without someone complaining that it "ruins the tone."

 

[Tweeedman]

Gibson has made these weak heads for almost 70 years! So why would they start now? They could easily hide the carbon rods under the fretboard, nut and faceplate. So nobody would know. But that would cost an extra hour and time saved is money. Especially if the unlucky customers are the ones that have to pay when the necks break.

In my guitar building classes we always go for scarf joints and there has been no breaks for 20+ years, When you glue a clean Gibson break with good glue it is stronger than the wood was before. But since you have parallell fibers within a millimeter on each side of the glue line.

It ´s said that Jeff Beck switched from his LP to a Strat because he got tired of glueing the broken neck/head.

 

[pshupe]

Gibson has made these weak heads for almost 70 years! So why would they start now? They could easily hide the carbon rods under the fretboard, nut and faceplate. So nobody would know. But that would cost an extra hour and time saved is money. Especially if the unlucky customers are the ones that have to pay when the necks break.

In my guitar building classes we always go for scarf joints and there has been no breaks for 20+ years, When you glue a clean Gibson break with good glue it is stronger than the wood was before. But since you have parallell fibers within a millimeter on each side of the glue line.

It ´s said that Jeff Beck switched from his LP to a Strat because he got tired of glueing the broken neck/head.

Gibson is not the only company that makes angled head stocks. Gibson has also adjusted head stock angles and added volutes over the years. It would be interesting to know the percentage of breaks related to the number of guitars that are made by Gibson.

You mention none of your scarf jointed builds from your guitar building class has ever broken. Are you sure? Maybe 18 yrs ago someone broke a head stock on one of those guitars. How would you know? Do you keep track of every guitar that was every built? How many guitars have been built in 20yrs in your classes? Compare to Gibson's 150,000 or so a year. I bet by percentage more of the guitars have broken head stocks from your building classes. This may be a silly comparison.

flat head stock guitars have broken necks as well.

You do not want to break your head stock? Do not drop it.

Cheers Peter.

 

[anthony z]

Great thread and discussion amongst the more serious contributors. I thought the Canadian repair guy YouTube video was good (mahogany spline repair on a SG headstock). If I recall correctly, he suggested that reinforcing the neck into the headstock area means a break will happen further down the headstock -- I would have never thought of that.

I have used 1/4" W x 1/4" D and 1/4" x 3/8" D, carbon fiber to reinforce the headstock down the length of the neck with success as I don't carve volutes on my headstocks. Most of my necks are 5-piece (not counting the ears) - wood/ebony veneer/wood/ebony veneer/wood and I backstrap the back of the headstock with figured veneer. Looks pretty and strengthens the headstock.

An additional benefit of extending the carbon fiber rod down the length of the neck is to stop the neck from twisting down the road.

I am just starting an ES-335 build to roughly '59 spec - 17 degree neck angle (no volute) and am a little nervous with a one piece mahogany (plus rabbit ears) neck. Any suggestions on which pre-made 2-way truss rod to use?

 

[Rubetel]

Another possible help without going too far out of the way is to modify the lugs a little ... that not only reinforce the head but even better the part of the angle of break.
You could even change the angle to gain a little more
ears as in a fliying head v.

or even more aesthetic

 

[CB91710]

Gibson is not the only company that makes angled head stocks. Gibson has also adjusted head stock angles and added volutes over the years. It would be interesting to know the percentage of breaks related to the number of guitars that are made by Gibson.

You mention none of your scarf jointed builds from your guitar building class has ever broken. Are you sure? Maybe 18 yrs ago someone broke a head stock on one of those guitars. How would you know? Do you keep track of every guitar that was every built? How many guitars have been built in 20yrs in your classes? Compare to Gibson's 150,000 or so a year. I bet by percentage more of the guitars have broken head stocks from your building classes. This may be a silly comparison.

flat head stock guitars have broken necks as well.
View attachment 508651

You do not want to break your head stock? Do not drop it.

Cheers Peter.

One of those "superior" Epiphone necks.....

 

[Tweeedman]

Gibson is not the only company that makes angled head stocks. Gibson has also adjusted head stock angles and added volutes over the years. It would be interesting to know the percentage of breaks related to the number of guitars that are made by Gibson.

You mention none of your scarf jointed builds from your guitar building class has ever broken. Are you sure? Maybe 18 yrs ago someone broke a head stock on one of those guitars. How would you know? Do you keep track of every guitar that was every built? How many guitars have been built in 20yrs in your classes? Compare to Gibson's 150,000 or so a year. I bet by percentage more of the guitars have broken head stocks from your building classes. This may be a silly comparison.

flat head stock guitars have broken necks as well.
View attachment 508651

You do not want to break your head stock? Do not drop it.

Cheers Peter.

I guess the total LP style guitars built are somewhere around 150 - 200. And they can't break because the glue line is under the fret board and that joint is stronger than the wood itself. So the fibres of the head are parallell and lengthwise and can't break either. I have repaired a ton of broken Epi and Gibson heads and then I drilled and glued in two threaded 3 mm steel rods thru the crack for reinforcement. So I really can't complain since I got paid. But I think it's too bad that Gibson still gets away with this inferior construction method.

 

[LPTDMSV]

/

I am just starting an ES-335 build to roughly '59 spec - 17 degree neck angle (no volute) and am a little nervous with a one piece mahogany (plus rabbit ears) neck. Any suggestions on which pre-made 2-way truss rod to use?

You may have good reasons to want a 2-way rod but an original style one takes a little less wood out of the neck so that might be a consideration?

Also, this sounds like a great opportunity to try out some hidden reinforcements with grain-oriented maple or CF fillets as per the first post in this thread. '59 spec from the outside, stronger inside?

 

[pshupe]

One of those "superior" Epiphone necks.....

View attachment 508803

My point is any neck will break. So was this your guitar and you just walked by with a gentle wind and the head stock exploded? Or did someone drive over it with a truck? It's silly to just say blanketly that angled head stocks are horrible and should be re-designed because some break.

You only show one neck break here. I guess Fender necks are much more fragile because I show 7 in the post you quoted??

To the OP's point there has been multiple posts on how to make the head stock stronger. Do that if you want or do not buy a angled head stock guitar. Or make one out of steel and mount it to legs so it never falls. Let's just move on.

Regards Peter.

 

[Rubetel]

I always like to use examples and analogies
I think I will start a thread of comparisons between a Les Paul guitar and a Land Rover car (In the forums when someone complains about a very expensive spare part some members reply: You had to buy the Whiskey and now you can't afford the ice)
and things like that, making an analogy of two very loved products, which are easily broken and very expensive.

Today's standard phone is the smartphone
we all once thought that a screen as fragile as a cookie was a total waste.
Does everyone in the end break? Yes
Are some more resistant than others? Yes
I still have the first smartphone that I got, a Samsung S4 mini is useful and it still works for what I need, it takes good photos.
It is broken? Yes
It has a crack and I never put a protective lining on it
but before that it fell on the floor several times in front of me so hard that the battery and the back cover were thrown and did not break.
some other displays are like a cobweb some totally useless.
Thinking that it is going to break irretrievably does not prevent us from adding a protective tempered glass or a rubber impact protector.
You can ask for gorilla glass on the internet.

By the way
doing a little humor people from land rover forum
They say that Lucas has the patent of the short circuit hahahaha
Maybe Gibson should patent the broken head ...
Enjoy friends life is short

 

[LPTDMSV]

But I think it's too bad that Gibson still gets away with this inferior construction method.

As others have said, Gibson are prisoners of their own very traditionalist customer base. Their main business is providing people with the nearest they can build to the "golden era" of Gibson guitars at a number of different price points.

I am surprised Gibson haven't done more to run a parallel line of products, though, competing more directly with PRS by making Les Pauls with selected improvements and changes - they got some way towards that with the "High Performance" models a few years back, but perhaps they needed to go further or try some more traditional aesthetics with the new features.

I also wonder if the Gibson corporate memory is still scarred by the "Mark" series of acoustics back in the '70s, that was their last great attempt to design out all the problems and apply proper science to guitar building - didn't go so well

 

[pshupe]

I guess the total LP style guitars built are somewhere around 150 - 200. And they can't break because the glue line is under the fret board and that joint is stronger than the wood itself. So the fibres of the head are parallell and lengthwise and can't break either. I have repaired a ton of broken Epi and Gibson heads and then I drilled and glued in two threaded 3 mm steel rods thru the crack for reinforcement. So I really can't complain since I got paid. But I think it's too bad that Gibson still gets away with this inferior construction method.

I understand why they are stronger. My point is that you cannot say they "can't" break because they can and they will and they probably have. Is it better strength wise, absolutely. I do not think that is remotely up for debate.

Gibson "get's away" with this type of construction method because the vast majority of necks do not break. People are obviously happy with the design and are willing to buy a guitar with that type of construction.

Your point is like saying, I just bought a new car and ran into something and now I have to pay for it to be fixed. If you do not want to pay for a broken head stock buy a different guitar or buy insurance. It is completely up to you. This thread is getting a little off topic. There have been a lot of good suggestions on how to make the head stock stronger. If someone wants to start a Gibson head stock complaining thread have at it. Then I can avoid it from the topic name.

Regards Peter.

 

[Rubetel]

I understand why they are stronger. My point is that you cannot say they "can't" break because they can and they will and they probably have. Is it better strength wise, absolutely. I do not think that is remotely up for debate.

Gibson "get's away" with this type of construction method because the vast majority of necks do not break. People are obviously happy with the design and are willing to buy a guitar with that type of construction.

Your point is like saying, I just bought a new car and ran into something and now I have to pay for it to be fixed. If you do not want to pay for a broken head stock buy a different guitar or buy insurance. It is completely up to you. This thread is getting a little off topic. There have been a lot of good suggestions on how to make the head stock stronger. If someone wants to start a Gibson head stock complaining thread have at it. Then I can avoid it from the topic name.

Regards Peter.

Take it on the nice side friend

let's make contributions ...

but also

have fun
A hug

 

[CB91710]

My point is any neck will break. So was this your guitar and you just walked by with a gentle wind and the head stock exploded? Or did someone drive over it with a truck? It's silly to just say blanketly that angled head stocks are horrible and should be re-designed because some break.

You only show one neck break here. I guess Fender necks are much more fragile because I show 7 in the post you quoted??

To the OP's point there has been multiple posts on how to make the head stock stronger. Do that if you want or do not buy a angled head stock guitar. Or make one out of steel and mount it to legs so it never falls. Let's just move on.

Regards Peter.

I was just adding support to your comments about there being nothing inherently superior to making a neck in a way other than how Gibson does it.
That one is currently on sale on Stratosphere for a couple hundred bucks.
As you said, any neck will break if subjected to impact.
Headstocks are like guns... they don't just "go off"
Someone on this forum is fond of repeating a story where a woman "bumped" a LP while vacuuming and it "just broke"
BS... She knocked it out of the stand.

Honestly... in my 45 years of playing, I've never known the headstock breakage issue to be a "big thing" until the last 5 years or so.
Almost like the internet invented it... or maybe made it an issue as an excuse for mishandling their guitars.
Or maybe it is and always has been something that might happen to 5% of guitar owners, but the internet gives them a forum to share.

I'm not in the slightest bit concerned about the headstocks on my Gibsons

 

[pshupe]

Take it on the nice side friend

let's make contributions ...

but also

have fun
A hug

Sorry if this came off argumentative but... ;-) This thread is starting to become a Gibson bashing rant. Your original post is great and it has been followed by advice regarding the re-enforcement of the area that is most commonly regarded as weak. I think this thread has ended it's usefulness and is now just becoming a session for people to complain. That is not what the Luthier's Corner is for IMHO.

It should always be fun. Have a good day.

Cheers Peter.