Preventive inserts for head breakage

[CB91710]

...and many ain’t seen how much wood is NOT THERE above nut because they’ve not had the TRC off...

Yep... Heel adjust would make a big difference.
But it's not a bolt-on neck, so not as simple to get to since it would have to be in the pickup cavity... or the fugly "tinkertoy" adjuster.

 

[Roxy13]

Ornetts (MIJ) did their truss rods with the adjustment in the neck pickup cavity. They were also making the Greco guitars in the early 2000s.

 

[Rubetel]

Barry I don't think I would bother using the mahogany offcuts the strength improvement would be minimal compared to carbon fibre. The Les paul headstock neck join is not the strongest so something stronger than mahogany would be required for any real improvement. Carbon fibre fits the bill when glued with 2 part epoxy. I use those thin round sawblades in a dremel to cut the groove for the reinforcing. I also don't think you need any more than 0.5-1mm thickness by 10-12mm high.
Cheers
Andrew
[/CITAR]
I like your idea friend
I would also use thin inserts with saw dremelo something similar
but I would also like to preserve the originality of the materials I would go with hard wood along the grain even quarter sawn maybe maple ... I have on hand a brown ebony fillet that is quite hard and flexible at the same time maybe I will try it

 

[wildhawk1]

Dealing with possible neck breaks, truss rods and other wood related issues is last century tech.

There's better but traditionalists would blowup a terabyte claiming it's not as good so same as it ever was.

 

[moreles]

My "materials thinking" and reasonable experience suggest to me that while reinforcement can help, it's not a game-changer given the massive weight of the LP body, the angle of the headstock, and string tension. There are plenty of other wqays to strengthen this area of the neck, like laminated necks (Norlin, etc.), Alembic-style multi-ply head laminates (front and back), volutes, and splines (not wood; that doesn't do much). These methods have a tonal effect, though whether or not they're really audlible or even negative in nature is up for grabs. My view is that if you have to design a guitar to protect it from users, what's the effing use? I don't hear violinists begging for someone to design an instrument that you can drop or sit on with impunity. I also think it's a myth that the world is full of broken LPs. There are plenty of broken ones -- but there are plenty times plenty times plenty unbroken ones.

 

[ARandall]

^ +1

Trying to engineer something to combat what I'd describe as various levels of carelessness or abuse is not generally what many designers feel the need to incorporate.......its akin to buildings being required to be exocet missile proof.

But to make my guitars a little more sturdy, I've taken to putting on thicker veneers, and building the headstock thicker too. It makes for tuner issues.....as you need to buy the longest shaft versions (and on occasion I have recessed the bushings), but I have had a couple of my guitars drop from the painting hook with no breaks.

 

[the great waldo]

My "materials thinking" and reasonable experience suggest to me that while reinforcement can help, it's not a game-changer given the massive weight of the LP body, the angle of the headstock, and string tension. There are plenty of other wqays to strengthen this area of the neck, like laminated necks (Norlin, etc.), Alembic-style multi-ply head laminates (front and back), volutes, and splines (not wood; that doesn't do much). These methods have a tonal effect, though whether or not they're really audlible or even negative in nature is up for grabs. My view is that if you have to design a guitar to protect it from users, what's the effing use? I don't hear violinists begging for someone to design an instrument that you can drop or sit on with impunity. I also think it's a myth that the world is full of broken LPs. There are plenty of broken ones -- but there are plenty times plenty times plenty unbroken ones.

You Should ask Jimmy Page about that. Some of his les pauls have more glue than wood in the headstocks !
Cheers
Andrew

 

[jvin248]

.

A scarf joint is the best way to start a neck design with an angled headstock, but combining a scarf joint with additional mods will also greatly improve strength:
-lower headstock angle, gibson uses 17deg, epiphone 12deg, PRS 9deg .... Fender 0 deg!
-thicker headstock, especially at the transition
-truss rod access at the heel so no chopped out hole at the weakest spot
-shorter headstock so less of a moment arm wrenching on the weakest/thinnest part of the neck at impact
-volute carve
-laminated necks (which Gibson tried three piece necks in the 70s and those still broke because of design violations above)


Grain direction for One Piece vs Scarf Joints, The short fibers on a one piece neck are why Gibson headstocks break so easily.

Here's a break after a repair using splines. The neck separates around the splines.

Repair in process video.
I like the comment he makes part way through that if you want to play these guitars, you are taking on that risk, "that's just the way it is".

Paul cheats here but this is an example of what a neck design should be

Consider marketing, like this Timex commercial sold a lot of watches back in the day.

Or these Fender ads from the 50s/60s ... look at the durability with no cheating the headstock placement

Gibson puts all the risk on the guitar buyers. Who, when a headstock breaks, are often buying a replacement (worried a repaired guitar may not have the same tone? Lol). However, there are so many players who either outright avoid Gibsons because of the risk factor (it cuts the guitar value in half vs another unbroken-unrepaired guitar), the high risk for buying an undisclosed repaired guitar used (check the headstock with a black-light LED flashlight), or they have one break and vow never to buy another Gibson again.

Often the cycle of blame in forum threads comes around to the owners, described as sloppy, slovenly, careless, and that they just don't take care of their stuff like they should. But even the players who buy a Gibson and baby the guitar for the decades they own it, get frequently caught in the sales drama where the shipper breaks the guitar in transit (double boxed and inside a hard case) and the buyer ships it back to them for a full refund and the shipper's insurance only covers the cost of the repair not the value lost from unbroken vs repaired used guitar. Oh, so much drama.

The simple cause of Gibson's neck problem is a faulty design. Doesn't matter how good their factory is or is not at making guitars or the end of line QC checks 'inspecting quality into' the guitars ... the cause is a faulty design.

They really need to increase their Quality of Design.

The only way they will fix the design is if buyers demand a change, just like most car buyers are now checking how many safety stars are on that new vehicle they are considering buying, or not buying when they uncover a lack of stars. When most of the issues around car safety of seatbelts and airbags were covered the discussion frequently pointed at careless drivers to deflect the responsibility. Now all automobile manufacturer must run crash tests.

Perhaps an industry guitar drop test should exist.

.

 

[LPTDMSV]

.

A scarf joint is the best way to start a neck design with an angled headstock, but combining a scarf joint with additional mods will also greatly improve strength:
-lower headstock angle, gibson uses 17deg, epiphone 12deg, PRS 9deg .... Fender 0 deg!
-thicker headstock, especially at the transition
-truss rod access at the heel so no chopped out hole at the weakest spot
-shorter headstock so less of a moment arm wrenching on the weakest/thinnest part of the neck at impact
-volute carve
-laminated necks (which Gibson tried three piece necks in the 70s and those still broke because of design violations above)


Grain direction for One Piece vs Scarf Joints, The short fibers on a one piece neck are why Gibson headstocks break so easily.

Here's a break after a repair using splines. The neck separates around the splines.



Repair in process video.
I like the comment he makes part way through that if you want to play these guitars, you are taking on that risk, "that's just the way it is".

Paul cheats here but this is an example of what a neck design should be

Consider marketing, like this Timex commercial sold a lot of watches back in the day.

Or these Fender ads from the 50s/60s ... look at the durability with no cheating the headstock placement



Gibson puts all the risk on the guitar buyers. Who, when a headstock breaks, are often buying a replacement (worried a repaired guitar may not have the same tone? Lol). However, there are so many players who either outright avoid Gibsons because of the risk factor (it cuts the guitar value in half vs another unbroken-unrepaired guitar), the high risk for buying an undisclosed repaired guitar used (check the headstock with a black-light LED flashlight), or they have one break and vow never to buy another Gibson again.

Often the cycle of blame in forum threads comes around to the owners, described as sloppy, slovenly, careless, and that they just don't take care of their stuff like they should. But even the players who buy a Gibson and baby the guitar for the decades they own it, get frequently caught in the sales drama where the shipper breaks the guitar in transit (double boxed and inside a hard case) and the buyer ships it back to them for a full refund and the shipper's insurance only covers the cost of the repair not the value lost from unbroken vs repaired used guitar. Oh, so much drama.

The simple cause of Gibson's neck problem is a faulty design. Doesn't matter how good their factory is or is not at making guitars or the end of line QC checks 'inspecting quality into' the guitars ... the cause is a faulty design.

They really need to increase their Quality of Design.

The only way they will fix the design is if buyers demand a change, just like most car buyers are now checking how many safety stars are on that new vehicle they are considering buying, or not buying when they uncover a lack of stars. When most of the issues around car safety of seatbelts and airbags were covered the discussion frequently pointed at careless drivers to deflect the responsibility. Now all automobile manufacturer must run crash tests.

Perhaps an industry guitar drop test should exist.

.

Epic post! Design theory + vintage Fender ads + Ralph Nader!

Although the 17 degree angle is for sure the Gibson standard, they have used 14 degrees at times. Some (most?) Explorers and early Norlin Les Paul re-issues for example were 14 degrees, there may be others. I don't believe there is any magic to the 17 degree number.

 

[Freddy G]

This - just route the slots at the same time as the truss rod. glue in the rods and then file or cut with hack saw flush with the head stock face. Then apply veneer.

View attachment 508082

Do not use a band saw or it will dull the blade instantly.

Regards Peter.

This. This is precisely what I do in my builds. Carbon fibre rods. 1/8" width is quite sufficient because the load on the width is not the concern, but the depth of the rod is the important factor (i go as deep as possible, depending on the thickness of the neck) . The i beam effect. ehb alluded to it upstream as a butterknife at gunpoint analogy.

 

[edro]

Thinking back to the old days, I have realized that I never played an Uncle Mat with a bad lamí neck.
Uncle Mat knew more about laminations than most anybody except maybe Helgeson or Turner and co....but Uncle Mat was relatively cheap...theirs were not even in the same universe as cheap.

I still kick myself for not buying a couple of Vantage guitars IIRC the brand. (So many brands that were Uncle Mat built) Badass basses...simple dbl cut with a P pickup, lamí neck thru....damn.... They evidently knew what they were doing with lamis and had a good reason besides just beauty....

Toss in composites and they’re even stronger...

Everybody should play at least one old Moonstone.

 

[Rubetel]

Yesterday I started carving my first neck
a beautiful piece of very light blonde mahogany
quarter sawn perfect
the carpentry friend accidentally cut the angle a little steep but there was still enough room to correct
a lot of sandpaper and some saw
but upppps
later I discovered that the pegbox is a bit turned

: confuso:
I'm sure something will do with him
is a perfect candidate for experiments of the inserts discussed here

 

[dcomiskey]

Perhaps it's moot, but carving is the very last thing I would do with a neck, AFTER routing the truss and CF rod channels and gluing the fretboard. More experienced guys can chime in. But, w/o the fretboard on, you're not getting the true feel of the neck if you carve first.

 

[Rubetel]

Perhaps it's moot, but carving is the very last thing I would do with a neck, AFTER routing the truss and CF rod channels and gluing the fretboard. More experienced guys can chime in. But, w/o the fretboard on, you're not getting the true feel of the neck if you carve first.

Sometimes we are victims of our despair

 

[Freddy G]

Sometimes we are victims of our despair

or sometimes victims of charity

 

[Prostheta]

Even if the issue is fixed, the idea won't make the cork sniffers happy. It simply isn't "real" or "authentic" enough. There's plenty of ways to reduce the likelihood of headstock breakage in the LP design, however the sniffers of cork continue to misunderstand the phrase "if it isn't broken, don't fix it".

On the other hand, it might simply be more authentic if Gibson let all Les Pauls out of the gate with pre-broken-and-repaired headstocks. This to me is authentic and the eventual end game met, right?

 

[Prostheta]

Thinking back to the old days, I have realized that I never played an Uncle Mat with a bad lamí neck.
Uncle Mat knew more about laminations than most anybody except maybe Helgeson or Turner and co....but Uncle Mat was relatively cheap...theirs were not even in the same universe as cheap.

I still kick myself for not buying a couple of Vantage guitars IIRC the brand. (So many brands that were Uncle Mat built) Badass basses...simple dbl cut with a P pickup, lamí neck thru....damn.... They evidently knew what they were doing with lamis and had a good reason besides just beauty....

Toss in composites and they’re even stronger...

Everybody should play at least one old Moonstone.

I've been GASsing for an Aria Pro II PE-R60 for a long time, however I would much prefer something halfway between an LP and a PE; all the positives of the latter incorporated into the former. Authentic has its value however progress and improvement on a theme can't be forced to submit exclusively to navel-gazing and dewy-eyed nostalgia.

 

[VancoD]

This - just route the slots at the same time as the truss rod. glue in the rods and then file or cut with hack saw flush with the head stock face. Then apply veneer.

Do not use a band saw or it will dull the blade instantly.

lol - I learned the hard way on "milling" CF with blades -vs- abrasives - and I was just dealing with some ultra-thin stuff as a neck shim.

And I'd hope everyone here would be well aware, but you absolutely have to have PPE when working the stuff.

 

[VancoD]

HAHAHAHA - that neck may not have snapped, but I'd bet it wasn't usable in an instrument after this.

But that's a pretty great ad...

 

[ArchEtech]

I’ve never had a headstock break in any guitar in 35 years. I’m not a professional travel musician though - that would bring another level of risk. I guess I just don’t think it is THAT much of a risk.

I don’t mind the idea of reinforcement. That’s basically how they repair a headstock break. Might even balance a guitar better without using heavy tubers!

What about carbon fiber inserts or peg reinforcement?