Pots/Capacitor Advice Please...

[higain_guitar]

Hi, this is my first post but I have read this forum for years admiring the many helpful things I have found here. I just ordered a 2002 Fujigen Epiphone elite les paul standard (see attached pictures). It has not arrived yet, but let me ask for some advice.

The advice I kindly ask for is regarding the pots/capacitors. I have been reading the forum and Diceman says the elite/elitist "Japanese Noble pots" are fantasic. So I was thinking of keeping them and just upgrading the caps.

I plan on installing the WCR Godwood pickup set in this guitar and I want to use it to play metal in the style of Dio (holy diver/last in line albums) and Dokken (under lock and key), etc.

So my question is should I use paper in oil (PIO) caps or Polypropylene and metal foil caps (from RS guitarworks).

Any advice is appreciated.

Also, if you think I should replace the pots please let me know if I should go with a modern or vintage set from RS guitarworks... or another company if you think that is best...

Thanks,
HG

 

[Papa]

I just ordered a 2002 Fujigen Epiphone elite les paul standard. It has not arrived yet, but let me ask for some advice.

HG,

My advise would be to get it and then play it for a while.
Then decide. Beside, if it is a 2002, how do yo know for sure what may have already been done to it?
post some pics of the control cavity when you get it.

By the way.....
Welcome to the forum and Big Congrats on what looks like a beautiful guitar!!!

Papa

BTW...My personal preference is 50's wiring with 400v PIO caps.
(I also believe in magic, witchcraft, music and other black arts)

 

[higain_guitar]

Thanks Papa. The Seller did tell me all the parts/electronics are original, but I'll see when I get the guitar.

I thought I read somewhere that PIO caps are darker/creamier than Polypropylene and metal foil caps--is that your experience too? I never used a PIO cap....

Take care,
HG

 

[DPaulCustom]

HG,

My advise would be to get it and then play it for a while.
Then decide. Beside, if it is a 2002, how do yo know for sure what may have already been done to it?
post some pics of the control cavity when you get it.

By the way.....
Welcome to the forum and Big Congrats on what looks like a beautiful guitar!!!

Papa

BTW...My personal preference is 50's wiring with 400v PIO caps.
(I also believe in magic, witchcraft, music and other black arts)

+1
Always play any guitar for at least a week or so, before you let the mod bug out of the box, it might be perfect just the way it is,
HNincomingGD, Very nice lookinf Elitist.
Welcome to the MLPF, when she arrives, we need

 

[SWeAT hOg]

Thanks Papa. The Seller did tell me all the parts/electronics are original, but I'll see when I get the guitar.

I thought I read somewhere that PIO caps are darker/creamier than Polypropylene and metal foil caps--is that your experience too? I never used a PIO cap....

Take care,
HG

Depends on your ears. A friend and armchair guitar tech expert swore that I would love the changes PIO caps would make on my guitar. After he did the swap, I heard.....nothing different.

 

[Papa]

HG,

PIO caps are IMO warmer sounding.
Poly caps seem to have sharper highs.
This is, of course, a matter of opinion as most electronic experts will say there are no numbers to support this.

Still, think about it.
You might say, "that guitarist must be playing a Les Paul."
You will likely say, "nothing sounds like that except a midget-magic amp."
You may even say " Those are some hot pickups....wonder what they are."
When did you ever hear anyone say...
That guy has got to be using orange drop caps.

Poly caps with low number will give the brightest effect. (.010µF - .022µF)
Combine it with modern wiring and it is about as bright and sharp at 10 as you will get without doing direct wiring. (no tone controls)

The other end of the spectrum is 50's wiring with PIO caps.
This will give a warm/woody tone.
Again, The lower the the cap µF value, The brighter the tone control.

Why not just buy a few caps and test them. You don't have to buy $50 Bumbling Bees.
Most poly caps can be had for a buck or two. I get Russian K40Y-9 PIO caps for around $6.
It's easy enough to test with a bit of wire and some alligator clips.

You can test caps and 50's vs. modern at the same time.

....

Best of luck,

Papa

 

[higain_guitar]

@DPaul,

I will play with her for a while and then decide whether to upgrade pickups.

@northernguitarguy thanks for sharing your experience with pio caps

@papa thanks for that info

Can anyone comment on the kind of tone I can expect from the stock USA 50SR & 60ST pickups?

I might keep the neck, but I would be surprised if the stock bridge sounds as good as or better than a WCR Godwood....

Take care,
HG

 

[DPaulCustom]

@DPaul,

I will play with her for a while and then decide whether to upgrade pickups.

@northernguitarguy thanks for sharing your experience with pio caps

@papa thanks for that info

Can anyone comment on the kind of tone I can expect from the stock USA 50SR & 60ST pickups?

I might keep the neck, but I would be surprised if the stock bridge sounds as good as or better than a WCR Godwood....

Take care,
HG

Come back & let us know your findings, lots of sdjustments can be made to get good tonez from stock pups.
Too often, people just rip em out, without trying to set em up properly.
As Papa said, try diff caps, if you feel the need, & 50s wiring vs modern, to see which better suits your style.
All kinds of variables & options these days

 

[Curmudgeon]

Can anyone comment on the kind of tone I can expect from the stock USA 50SR & 60ST pickups?

I might keep the neck, but I would be surprised if the stock bridge sounds as good as or better than a WCR Godwood....

Take care,
HG

The 60ST is pretty hot. Mine measured 12.6 or thereabouts. It was way too bright for my style, so I replaced it with a SD Slash APH-2, which is decidedly more woody sounding. For your style of music, you might like the 60ST.
Since I went to an Alnico II in the bridge, I replaced the 50SR with a SD APH-1 in the neck. It's a much better match for my purposes. Like the others have advised, play it awhile, before you make any changes.

 

[Paulie C]

I like Papa's method. Here is another simple way to A/B caps while your playing. Pretty much whatever you choose will sound better than stock chiclets.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drpL0pacXBw"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=drpL0pacXBw[/ame]

 

[higain_guitar]

Thanks guys for your help. The guitar arrived, and now I am suspicious that the electronics are not original. I have attached 3 pictures of the cavity, with 2 close-ups of the capacitors.

One of the capacitors looks like a Russian K40Y-9 PIO--that can't be what the Fujigen factory was using, was it? I cannot identify the other cap, please tell me if you know what it is...

Also, if you look at the pictures are those Japanese noble pots, or not?

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,
HG

 

[Bill Hicklin]

So my question is should I use paper in oil (PIO) caps or Polypropylene and metal foil caps

There might - might - be an audible difference playing clean. Playing metal? None whatsoever. It's like arguing over whether to put Jack Daniels or Jim Beam in Coca-Cola.

 

[Lutherie]

No this is not original wiring.

 

[robertoa1a]

Strange coincidence.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Those are definitely replacement caps, and the wiring doesn't look like either one of my Elitists.

 

[JohnnyN]

Thanks guys for your help. The guitar arrived, and now I am suspicious that the electronics are not original. I have attached 3 pictures of the cavity, with 2 close-ups of the capacitors.

One of the capacitors looks like a Russian K40Y-9 PIO--that can't be what the Fujigen factory was using, was it? I cannot identify the other cap, please tell me if you know what it is...

Also, if you look at the pictures are those Japanese noble pots, or not?

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,
HG

Both caps are K40Y-9. A 0.015 (probably 400v) for the neck and a 0.022 (probably 600v) for the bridge - both appear to be 10% tolerance.
Doesn't get any better than that IMHO.

Can't identify the pots, but at a glance I'd say they look like standard All Parts CTS pots. If they do have EP-0886 in the number they are.
Not bad, but not the best either IMHO.

 

[higain_guitar]

Thanks so much for your help guys, I really appreciate it.

@robertoa1a what did you mean by "strange coincidence"--- did you own this guitar before me?

 

[higain_guitar]

OK I looked more closely at the pots and they say EP686 500K on them.
I am pretty sure they are CTS Long Shaft 500K Split Shaft Audio Pots:
CTS Long Shaft 500K Split Shaft Audio Pot | Allparts.com

What do you guys think of these pots? Are they decent? Very good? Average?

Thanks,
HG

 

[JohnnyN]

OK I looked more closely at the pots and they say EP686 500K on them.
I am pretty sure they are CTS Long Shaft 500K Split Shaft Audio Pots:
CTS Long Shaft 500K Split Shaft Audio Pot | Allparts.com

What do you guys think of these pots? Are they decent? Very good? Average?

Thanks,
HG

Pretty good. If they work fine and you like the taper, there is no reason to replace them.

 

[tonka.boy333]

So my question is should I use paper in oil (PIO) caps or Polypropylene and metal foil caps (from RS guitarworks).

Any advice is appreciated.

At the risk of stepping on the toes of folks that have their favorite brands... as long as the capacitors introduced into a circuit have exactly the same value (not just the number stamped on the side) but the same exact value, different brand or construction will not affect tone of the guitar output.

I know those maybe fightin' words around these parts.

But there is some value to being a fan of name-brand caps for the guitar circuit. They have tighter tolerances, fewer defects, which result in a longer-lasting, more stable device. The end result is a more exacting tone from the guitar. Some people will swear that they get better tone when switching to Orange Drop or some other name brand caps. That may indeed be true, but only because the device they replaced had a different capacitance – not because it's orange or poly construction.

Cheap caps are notorious for wide swings in tolerances – regardless of the number stamped on the side. And they will begin to break down with age, causing the tone to sound thinner. Replacing them with new, good quality caps, will restore the warm tones that the manufacturer intended.

Last year, starting with the 2014 line, Gibson (and Epiphone) started using Orange Drops exclusively. Not because it made a better sounding guitar, but a more exacting, stable device will result in a more exacting, stable tone circuit. Which in the long run, makes a good sounding instrument stay good sounding longer.