Pawn Stars 1961 Gibson Les Paul SG

twangydave

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Just my opinion, but if I was dropping 110K+ on this guitar, I'd want GIBSON to confirm what date the guitar was, not Rick Harrison and his pet guys from Vegas. Someone will buy it in any case, it's not much cash to a rich man with a taste for history and a gap on the wall of his games room.
 

Indyclone

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the serial number is just one part of the puzzle
send a Ebay question to the seller about the claimed age
I've read here and a few other places that the first SG style Les Pauls, builtin in '60 & early '61, had 6 digit serial numbers.

Did you guys miss that or do you not agree?

Here's another source for that:
Gibson Les Paul Sunburst Standard guitar info 1958 1959 1960 sun burst vintage value



I'm no expert, but I'm pretty satisfied that this guitar is what it's reported as... the stories and data all fit pretty well, IMO.
 

Indyclone

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Oh, and I've noticed that the auction has been stuck at an even 100k for a while now.... wonder if it's going any higher.

Anybody ask what the reserve was?
 

Kevin James

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Here is some 62' just for comparison too.



Actually Nico,

Funny thing is thats not a 62 either :laugh2:. That one is another extremely early 1961, and this looks to be even earlier than the other one that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

The telling points are that it has the 50's syle serial number which is very rare, this one is number 1 0997, it also has the late 1960 type heel, which again, predates the smooth heel. What tips me off that this one is even earlier is that the toggle switch ring or "poker chip" is almost touching the pickguard which is a feature of the late 1960 SG's and the very first 61's. It was quickly moved to a slightly lower location which the other early 1961 that was posted displayed.

Notice also the spacer between the end of the neck and the neck pickup is blank, No "Les Paul, or "Les Paul Custom", another indication it is very early in production.

<Edit>
On closer inspection that number does look like a possible factory re-stamp. Slightly larger than normal font and the 0 is not the same font that is used in regular production, but does match the 0 font I have seen in several factory restamps including my 63 Special that was restamped.

The number is however very early 61 and the features are absolutely in line with very early 61 so I do believe it is the original serial number, just restamped. Possibly after a headstock repair based on the difference in color of the headstock to that of the neck. Looks like it may have had a break that was repaired at the factory and then the back of the headstock refinished and the number restamped.

And it is obviouse by that the added inlay on the back of the headstock is not original.
 

Kevin James

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I've read here and a few other places that the first SG style Les Pauls, builtin in '60 & early '61, had 6 digit serial numbers.

Did you guys miss that or do you not agree?

Here's another source for that:
Gibson Les Paul Sunburst Standard guitar info 1958 1959 1960 sun burst vintage value



I'm no expert, but I'm pretty satisfied that this guitar is what it's reported as... the stories and data all fit pretty well, IMO.
No, didn't miss that, however it doesn't tell the whole story. Yes the first SG Les Pauls built in 1960 most likely had a 6 digit number, however the serial system in place at the time was 50's style withthe first digit being the year of production, so if this was a late 60 the first digit would be 0. The only reason the last guitars from 60 were 6 digits in the first place was they ran out of numbers in the 5 digit range so it pushed into 6. This is common throughout the 50's. In fact, in another thread (the brown top Les Paul) it was mentioned that the ABR-1 actually started in very late 55 rather than 56 and most if not all were 6 digit serial number guitars.

When we get to 61, they start over, so back to 1 XXXX, so no 6 digits. When they switched to the new serial system very early in the year the first guitars were actually 4 digit serial numbers.
 

ACELUEK

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It appears none of these SGs are what people say they are.. The 1962 is a 1961.. The 1961 is 1963... The 62 is a 62 but was sold in 65.
I think they are all from China.
 

Kevin James

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It appears none of these SGs are what people say they are.. The 1962 is a 1961.. The 1961 is 1963... The 62 is a 62 but was sold in 65.
I think they are all from China.
My thought on it is this. You know how most people see a burst and say, "oh thats a 59" when they have no way of knowing if its could be a 58 or a 60? They base it on the fact 59 is the most famous year. Same thing going on here I think. They see an early SG Les Paul and automatically asume it's a 61 becasue that is the most famous year (even though I dont think it's the BEST year, I prefer 62/63 personally).
 

SRXy

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you are reacting to this show like it is real life, these shows are totally coordinated and set up, none of it is real, these shows are all staged to make them entertaining. Sory to burst your bubble but real life TV is far from being real! And the funny thing is how some people are so naive to be fooled by these shows! Ha ha ha ha
History Channel&#8217;s Pawn Stars is Fake | centraltendencies.com
LIES!!! IT'S ALL REAL!!! JUST LIKE DR DRAKE RAMORAY! :naughty:
 

HOT-BRIT

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Exactly, I've been saying that from the begining.. What I think the nephew did was... He was into Van Halen, needed some PAF's for his frankenstrat and removed them and stuck this SG in the closet.. The family now needing money, rebuilt it with 61' parts.. Remember with the neck heel.. Les paul didnt like this guitar.. Every time they would change the design they sent Les a prototype body showing the changes, this could have been a guitar from the production line, who knows.. Mary liked the white and 3 pickup look so les built her one with the huge parts box he had in his workshop. My grandfather lived to be 97 and was a musician all his life, played with Les Paul, and had his guitars tweeked by Les himself.. That is what they did back then. You didn't go to the store, you figured it out yourself, looked in the old parts box or asked a buddy.. And what's up with the family having Les's old contract documents.. They found them in a shoebox and threw them in for good measure.. The issue is that it was Marys guitar and is worth 100k.. She was wonderful and inspired Les to be Les paul.. Buy it and put it in a museum where it belongs.. KIRK
no one knows what is in the documents, could be there is nothing relevant to this guitar in the documents, but including the documents with the guitar in the sale, then people assume there is a connection and it adds value when people are considering making a bid.
 

LPG

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This thread is EPIC.

Like a mystery novel...you just keep turning the pages to see what comes next.

I love it.
 

Kevin James

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OK, guys I have new information that I feel proves this is a 1963. If this doesn't proove it, nothing will :laugh2:

The serial number was confirmed as 6 digits and specifically that the number is 103367.

I contacted Gibson, gave them the serial number and a couple pictures and asked them to check the shipping ledger for that serial number.

They confimed that serial number matches a Les paul SG Custom shipped April 19, 1963. The provided a copy of the page in the ledger.

I cant figure out how to post a PDF here so I took a picture of it off my screen and will use that. Look at the second line, it is the guitar in question, serial 103367 and clearly notes a ship date of 4/19/63. This also proves it WAS a standard off the line production guitar, contrary to the thoughts of some.



With that, I feel it is a pretty open and shut case. I also feel that the value of the guitar is in the fact it was Mary's. I really dont feel the difference between 61 and 63 makes a difference in value at all. If I was a bidder on the guitar, this would not effect my bid in the slightest, it is still Mary's guitar and it is still an early Les Paul SG.
 

HRC

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I agree that the year of this particular guitar doesn't make much difference in it's value. I think they need to quit advertising it as a 1961 though ASAP. So much for their "EXPERTS" :laugh2:
 

Kevin James

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I agree that the year of this particular guitar doesn't make much difference in it's value. I think they need to quit advertising it as a 1961 though ASAP. So much for their "EXPERTS" :laugh2:
I really dont think it makes a difference. The auction title mentions it as Mary Ford's personal Les Paul guitar, and it is (or was).

Anyone bidding on the guitar is bidding for that reason, not because of it being a '61". There are FAR cheaper 61's out there if thats what is wanted. It is still Mary's guitar, it is still a genuine early Les Paul SG, and it is still well within the "golden era". anything else is semantics.
 

Rigel42

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If I was a bidder on the guitar, this would not effect my bid in the slightest, it is still Mary's guitar and it is still an early Les Paul SG.
If it is a 63 its not the guitar on the cover of "Warm and Wonderful" and has a lesser connection to Les Paul.
 

HRC

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I really dont think it makes a difference. The auction title mentions it as Mary Ford's personal Les Paul guitar, and it is (or was).

Anyone bidding on the guitar is bidding for that reason, not because of it being a '61". There are FAR cheaper 61's out there if thats what is wanted. It is still Mary's guitar, it is still a genuine early Les Paul SG, and it is still well within the "golden era". anything else is semantics.
Sure, but it's clearly not a 61 and they are clearly advertising it as one.

Good work by the way.:thumb: If I'm ever buying a vintage SG and have questions I know who I'm asking...
 

Kevin James

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If it is a 63 its not the guitar on the cover of "Warm and Wonderful" and has a lesser connection to Les Paul.
But...it was never advertised as being the guitar on the cover of that album, and it was advertised as Mary's guitar, not Les's.
 

Kirk2000

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This information is awesome.. Now explain to me why their experts say it's a 61'. Pot codes? I still think it is a parts guitar. The nephew canabalized it, took all the parts off, then they reassembled it to sell the guitar.. Well put together investigation Mr James.. KIRK
 

Indyclone

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OK, guys I have new information that I feel proves this is a 1963. If this doesn't proove it, nothing will :laugh2:

The serial number was confirmed as 6 digits and specifically that the number is 103367.

I contacted Gibson, gave them the serial number and a couple pictures and asked them to check the shipping ledger for that serial number.

They confimed that serial number matches a Les paul SG Custom shipped April 19, 1963. The provided a copy of the page in the ledger.

I cant figure out how to post a PDF here so I took a picture of it off my screen and will use that. Look at the second line, it is the guitar in question, serial 103367 and clearly notes a ship date of 4/19/63. This also proves it WAS a standard off the line production guitar, contrary to the thoughts of some.

IMG

With that, I feel it is a pretty open and shut case. I also feel that the value of the guitar is in the fact it was Mary's. I really dont feel the difference between 61 and 63 makes a difference in value at all. If I was a bidder on the guitar, this would not effect my bid in the slightest, it is still Mary's guitar and it is still an early Les Paul SG.

I could swear it was you who earlier showed how Gibson used the same numbers more than once.

Then there is this:
http://home.provide.net/~cfh/lpsun.html said:
1961 Gibson Les Paul SG Standard guitar specs:
complete body style change to symmetrical pointed double cutaways, thin mahogany body with beveled edges, cherry red finish (refered to as the "SG" body style). Still says "Les Paul" on the peghead and/or truss rod cover, but is often called a "SG/Les Paul Standard" because of the SG body shape. Peghead slightly wider. This model actually started in very late 1960, at about serial number "010001" (and was co-produced with the single cutaway sunburst Les Paul). All 1960/1961 SG Standards seem to be equipped with the infamous (crappy) "sideways" vibrato.
 

Indyclone

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PAFs in a '63?

a 3 hole pickguard on a '63?

sideways vibrato?

:hmm:


Did Gibson confirm that they did not use this number in 1960?
 


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