Pat # Pickup ??

Progear

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Hello all,

hopefully some members can help me identify this pup...
It seems to me '63-'65 ..

Thanx :dude:





 

Brewdude

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I'll certainly give way to the experts on this forum but from my brief research into these early pickups I'd agree with the '62-'65 thought. PAT# sticker, L marks on base, copper wire, black/white bobbin leads... all sounds like it to me though I'd love to hear other's thoughts :hmm:
 

RAG7890

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B & W Leads & Red / Orange PU Wire came in ~ early '63 & good flat Bobbins.

What I am really struggling with is the Magnet Length which actually looks like a Long Magnet vs. the Short Magnet which these PU's came with.

So without more detailed pics (in focus please) say '63 - '64 maybe but with a Magnet change.

Can you please post accurate pics top down showing the Magnet distance between end of Bobbins & edge of Base Plate.

:cheers2:
 

bill m

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Black and white lead wires came in mid 64 along with poly wire.
 

RAG7890

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Black and white lead wires came in mid 64 along with poly wire.
Are you sure about that Bill? Based on my own Vintage PU's & from what I have seen there are B & W leads from ~ '63. Poly Wire replaced Purple Enamel straight after ~ late '62, possibly very early '63.

I also don't think there is a definitive cut off date for the changes because I've seen all sort of anomalies, I'm sure you have seen the same thing.

My '62's are Purple Enamel, Double Black Leads with Shorts (which I had changed to '58 Long Magnets). '63's I've looked at have had the B & W Leads & Red / Orange PU Coating.

Also what about that Magnet, was it changed or did they use a leftover etc.?

Cheers, Rudi.
 

RAG7890

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Also, check the color of the Wire on both Bobbins. I know there is flash / light on the top Bobbin vs. not so much on the bottom Bobbin but there appears to be a difference in color.

If this is true the Bobbins must have been wound months apart etc. just a wild guess as you'd need to eye ball the colours under the same light.

:cheers2:
 

ThroBak

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All of these things were transitional. I have pat# pickups with purple wire white leads and chrome screws. I repaired a PAF with one white start lead and on black with both coming out the bottom square hole and it was untouched until I took the cover off. I have seen '68 SG's with pickups other PAF parts but poly wire. Not all PE was dark purple and there are spools with very light patches. Hard to tell from that photo because of lighting but it very well may have very light colored PE wire.
 

bill m

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Are you sure about that Bill? Based on my own Vintage PU's & from what I have seen there are B & W leads from ~ '63. Poly Wire replaced Purple Enamel straight after ~ late '62, possibly very early '63.

I also don't think there is a definitive cut off date for the changes because I've seen all sort of anomalies, I'm sure you have seen the same thing.

My '62's are Purple Enamel, Double Black Leads with Shorts (which I had changed to '58 Long Magnets). '63's I've looked at have had the B & W Leads & Red / Orange PU Coating.

Also what about that Magnet, was it changed or did they use a leftover etc.?

Cheers, Rudi.
I made my determinations on the chronology of pat #'s from actual known guitars. 1st, my own feb 1964 SG, has pe wire and double black lead wires, 2nd, a mid 64 ES335, same pe wire and double black lead wires, 3rd, nov 1964 SG, pe wire and blk/wht leads. And many other examples.
Are your vintage pickups in their original guitars? If not, how do you really know what year they are?
You are very correct about definitive cut off dates as there is cross over.
 

RAG7890

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I made my determinations on the chronology of pat #'s from actual known guitars. 1st, my own feb 1964 SG, has pe wire and double black lead wires, 2nd, a mid 64 ES335, same pe wire and double black lead wires, 3rd, nov 1964 SG, pe wire and blk/wht leads. And many other examples.
Are your vintage pickups in their original guitars? If not, how do you really know what year they are?
You are very correct about definitive cut off dates as there is cross over.
Thanks Bill. The above just reinforces the anomalies; i.e. PU's in an original Guitar built in a particular year, where the PU's may have been built a year or so earlier................happens quite often & why you can see PU's wound in the late '50's showing up in Guitars made in the early to mid '60's OR a combination; e.g. 1 x EP (Double Black Leads & also Black & White Leads) + 1 x PAF.

All of my Vintage PU's were removed from original Guitars by a person I know well in the US so I know the year the Guitar was built but will never know the year the PU's were actually made..............unlike Pots which are dated, as we all know PU's are not (apart from certain tells).

In my case PAF's ex a '58 ES175, EP's ex a '62 ES 175 & P90's ex a '58 Special. From memory the Special was stuffed but the ES 175's were probably just raped for the PU's (which I don't agree with but back then I just never thought about it at the time).

Cheers, Rudi
 

bill m

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I totally understand where you are coming from, but I haven't experienced poly wire before very late 1964. I don't believe that pickups were made more than a couple months at most, before a guitar was built, with the exception of narrow spaced humbuckers.
I'm sure the white wire showed up at times, as Jon stated, but the bottom hole was used as the start lead, where-as the true transition was when they stopped using the bottom hole, which again from my experience is late 64.
I have been in numerous Gibson's from 61-66 that were stock and untouched and the 1st thing I do is date the serial # and pots to determine when the guitar was made and any other appointments to help clearly identify the guitar. Many people don't just send me pickups to repair, as they send the whole guitar. Some of these people don't know exactly what year the guitars are. Example, I had a guy send me a 1965 SG and he said he was certain of the year as he bought it brand new, well when the guitar arrived it ended up being a 1963. I've had this happen many times.
To sum things up, I haven't seen black/ white lead wires, where the bottom hole isn't used prior to mid/late 64, and I have not seen poly wire used prior to very late 64, and maybe even early 65. As you stated, I'm sure there are anomalies and a cross over period.
I've had a Mid 66 Sg that had pe wire, black/white leads(bottom hole not used), and paf style bobbins. One would think that they just used pickups that were sitting in the bin a long time, but it had a stamped keeped bar, chrome covers, and more importantly abs bobbins and not butyrate. I've had some of the earliest T-tops from 65 that had butyrate bobbins, so, this does show a definite cross over of parts.
 

LtKojak

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One would think that they just used pickups that were sitting in the bin a long time, but it had a stamped keeped bar, chrome covers, and more importantly abs bobbins and not butyrate. I've had some of the earliest T-tops from 65 that had butyrate bobbins, so, this does show a definite cross over of parts.
The p'up depicted definately has butyrate bobbins. Also, it's a golden one, so, chances are, it's older than the guitar it's been put in.

I'll go out on a limb and say that's wound a lot closer to a PAF than a Pat#... or even PAF coils put on a Pat# baseplate, which, looking at it, would make it a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it? :laugh2:

HTH,
 

RAG7890

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The ohm reading on this puppy is 7.35 ohms..
Any thoughts / information on the presence of a Long Magnet in this EP?

Would make a nice Neck PU IMHO (assuming it is a good one & we'll never know till someone plugs her in). :)

:cheers2:
 

jamman

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Good info here guys :thumb:

I'll add a little of what I've come to know. PAF's ,from my readings of others who are far more expert then myself(and I ain't no expert) ,have posted that they have been found (unmolested) in much later year guitars. IIRC up to 65- maybe 67 ? these sat for years waiting to go into some of the 3X5 guitars (many Gold colored covers). And Is fairly well accepted as being so .

In the OP pics lighting ,from my own experiences ,can have a huge effect on what the camera sees and what you could see in hand as to the color of the wire in the bobbins . I've seen purple wire look Orange when the lighting is at a different angle . That made me Nuts as I know I saw it purple a minute before :wow:

What I see in the op pics , may be a short magnet. Difficult to tell for sure without better pics , but it may just look like a long magnet because of its placement . On the lead wire side (difficult to see well) I think it's shorter then where a long should be.

I always thought the Orange wire (everything is transitional with Gibson)were ~ a '65 + time . As with most Things ,Nothing is steadfast about Gibson, Not even today .
Thanks to Bill for some great Info posted here and all raound,,,he really knows his SH*t ...:thumb:
 

Progear

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Well the pickup was sent over to Bill @ECP.. Here are the details..
Mid sixties, '64 or '65, poly wire and long non vintage replacement long magnet.

Bill fixed the pickup, installed vintage A5 short magnet..

I plan on installing in the neck position in my 1963 es345..

I will post my opinion once installed and played..

Thanks to Bill for the great and fast service..
 

VonPrikler

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What would be the going price for one of these in today's market? A '64 patent sticker? I've actually got one coming to me in a '64 SG as I type this, and I'll probably end up selling the pickup. It is just the one patent sticker pickup, not the pair - and definitely original to the '64 SG, with the original short magnet. Thanks!
 


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