Out of phase middle position & advice on PAF clones (sound clip)

Luke McDonough

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Hi everyone,

Just wondering if anyone else has flipped the magnet in their historics?
I done it on my 2007 R8 almost 10 years ago and have never looked back!

Although I have been thinking about changing to handwound PAF clones lately.... any suggestions!

 

snapper818

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I did the neck magnet on my epi. LP plus top with stock probuckers.. I can actually use my middle position now ! Super happy with sounds I get. I can also coil tap each pup individually so I can get some gnarly sounds with my set up when playing in the middle position.
 

ARandall

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You can make any pickup set OOP. But judging by threads here and elsewhere most of them would sound pretty crap....even if you were interested in that sort of sound. It takes some special attention in winding to make that sort of thing work - unless the host guitar is just right as well.

As an indication, I'd guess that of all the queries about potential OOP hookup, approx 0.5% of them are wanting to keep it...even once they know what is going on. Most pickup combos are both too quiet, and also too extreme in the frequency cancellation to work as a permanent option.
 

Luke McDonough

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It’s a must for me and my R8 to be honest as a Peter Green fan. I’ve never tried the wiring version but the magnet flip sounds great to me.

I think BKP do a out of phase set, I might look into those.
 

dc007

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Most winders offer a set with the magnet flipped as their Peter Green offering. And I feel quite sure they would flip a magnet for you on any set you want. If I wanted to do this I would probably get 2 pickups of similar output and a little on the hot side.
 

cooljuk

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It’s a must for me and my R8 to be honest as a Peter Green fan. I’ve never tried the wiring version but the magnet flip sounds great to me.

I think BKP do a out of phase set, I might look into those.
It's not that the wiring reversed or magnet flipped version of phase reversal sound different (it doesn't). It's that most pickup sets have two very similar pickups in the bridge and neck so when you put them out of phase (in any way you do that) they cancel too much sound and sound too weak and thin. Greeny's Burst didn't have two similar pickups in it so the OOP sound in the middle still has some body and character to it. ...that's a simple explanation of one part of a complicated system, though.
 

Brek

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lovely sound there Luke.

Cooljuk, so many different theories spouted on this one, my head hurts, I read that it works best if pickups are similar, but what you say makes sense, from what little I know about sound and out of phase effects. the neck pickup was switched around so poles nearer the middle. I wonder if this was why the magnet was flipped? to restore correct polarity? Or was it purely lack of knowledge? the chap accredited with the pickup repair/rewind was not an electronics guy, from what I gather, more the wood side of things if I what I read is correct. So a very happy accident? I dunno, just a very nice sound drenched in litres of reverb.
 

Luke McDonough

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lovely sound there Luke.

Cooljuk, so many different theories spouted on this one, my head hurts, I read that it works best if pickups are similar, but what you say makes sense, from what little I know about sound and out of phase effects. the neck pickup was switched around so poles nearer the middle. I wonder if this was why the magnet was flipped? to restore correct polarity? Or was it purely lack of knowledge? the chap accredited with the pickup repair/rewind was not an electronics guy, from what I gather, more the wood side of things if I what I read is correct. So a very happy accident? I dunno, just a very nice sound drenched in litres of reverb.
Thanks!
Yeah to be honest you get the balance and sound you like by differing the volume controls. I can imagine that unbalanced pickups would sound worse also.
 

Brek

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I have 4 custom buckers so if I get that curious I can always try them out, 2 are near identical at 7.93 give or take a .002. the others are 7.47 and 7.81
 

cooljuk

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lovely sound there Luke.

Cooljuk, so many different theories spouted on this one, my head hurts, I read that it works best if pickups are similar, but what you say makes sense, from what little I know about sound and out of phase effects. the neck pickup was switched around so poles nearer the middle. I wonder if this was why the magnet was flipped? to restore correct polarity? Or was it purely lack of knowledge? the chap accredited with the pickup repair/rewind was not an electronics guy, from what I gather, more the wood side of things if I what I read is correct. So a very happy accident? I dunno, just a very nice sound drenched in litres of reverb.

This stuff has all been discussed on this and other forums pretty heavily. Rotating a humbucker in the ring, the way Greeny's was, has nothing to do with the phase relationship of the two pickups.

That neck pickup was repaired, as you said. Whether or not those coils were wound backwards, hooked up backwards, or the magnet was inserted backwards, or all three (any combination of only two would leave the pickup back in original phase/polarity, but any one, or all three, would reverse it), is unknown and doesn't matter. Some of us have done comprehensive comparisons of the various ways to reverse phase and found no significant, if any, difference in sound. Alex of Wizz, along with Duane Flowers (also the editor of my PAF and Gibson history book), put out some videos showing the results of this. What is likely the significant factor is that the pickup was repaired, making it different from the other original PAF, and the phase relationship was also reversed in some method, as a result of the repair.

At the end of the day, however, the original first hand and second hand accounts of what happened, and the minimal supporting information, about the repair conflict. Since then, the guitar has been further messed with and even if someone were to do a complete tear-down of that pickup today, it will never be known what state it was in, when Peter Green originally played it, which is the sound most are after.

I know how I get the sound and it works for me and also fits in with the photos and accounts of the repair work, but I'm also more than happy to be proven wrong about that later, as I don't think there is a way to know everything for sure about that heavily used and altered instrument so long ago. What's important is that the result works. I doubt a film of the repair will ever surface. :)
 

ARandall

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^ And of course since Peter himself has now sadly passed, the chance of any final definitive recollection of exactly what went on is forever gone.
 


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