Other than the headstock logo, why do Chibsons get so much hate?

[cybermgk]

Because there criminals and try and rip EVERYONE off. I for one dont support illegal child labor and or international fraud and misrepresentation of a copy righted logo.

Yep, all of which the same companies that will make an exact LP copy but put some name other than Gibson on it also do. Support one, you also support the other imho.

 

[CB91710]

Yep, all of which the same companies that will make an exact LP copy but put some name other than Gibson on it also do. Support one, you also support the other imho.

There has been a lot of speculation on that, and it's certainly possible, but it is unlikely that it is known to upper management.
I think some of the speculation has arisen from the fact that many of these come with "Epiphone" pickups... but I think at this point, it's been confirmed that they are not the same (wind) as anything Epiphone has sold in recent years.
They COULD be Epi base plates with some generic parts attached... but if these are being made in the Epi factory, why bother? The parts are in the bin.

10 years or so ago, a bunch of either Trijicon or Aimpoint firearm optics hit the market, and there was a small batch of serial numbers confirmed and flagged for warranty denial.
These appeared to be a similar situation that happened to my former boss, who owned a sheet metal production facility in San Jose.
The company was bleeding money, in part because the cousin running the place had a drug problem.
They got rid of him and brought in a new manager. That brought the company back from the brink, but it was still problematic, as they were never able to pull a profit.
My boss spent a couple of months looking into it by flying up and dropping in from time to time, and he found that the problem was apparently inventory and other consumables shrinkage.

Turned out that the new manager was running a 2nd shift, producing products for a side hustle, using the company inventory and machinery, including the gas and laser cutter. At the time, this was one of the few shops in California that could laser-cut 1/4" stainless.

So it can and does happen, but not always with the knowledge of the owners.

 

[VictorB]

 

[martin H]

What you are saying, if I paraphrase, is that it is not an issue to be a patron of an Organized Crime's legitimate front business.

Yes, @Freddy G could have been more clear, But, I am pretty sure, he condemned the entire businesses in question. Just like my analogy above, buying a non counterfeit guitar from said company, aids and abets said company in their counterfeiting endeavors, just like patronizing a legitimate front of an organized crime entity, aids and abets their criminal activities. And, just like the latter, likely unbeknownst to the individual exactly how they are aiding and abetting (and no I don't mean in the legal, can prosecute them sense).

I have not expressed any opinion on the morality of unrestricted world trade in general, or in this particular case. I stated was that it was better for posters not to use phrases like "illegal" "intellectual property theft" "Trademark violation" "trafficking" etc., as these have specific and often complex legal meanings. I also stated that simple possession of an individual copy was not "illegal. "

These facts evidently do not support you narrative so you up the ante with the theorem of "aiding and abetting counterfeiting " and "patronizing a legitimate front of an organized crime entity" to describe the purchase of a instrument that is not counterfeit.

When it come to "patronizing a legitimate front of an organized crime entity," do you have any Chinese made products in your house? ( The answer is yes).

There are equally appalling abuses going on in the LEGITMATE manufacture of branded products in China. Your are probably supporting a lot more child labor, abusive practices, the Chinese Communist party, intellectual property theft and "organized crime" by buying sneakers or consumer electronics than by buying a copy guitar. Under these circumstances, telling a kid that he is "aiding and and abetting a legitimate front of an organized crime entity" for buying a (non-infringing) Chinese guitar, while transmitting that message on Chinese manufactured electronics strikes me as a bit hysterical, and hypocritical.

Actual Trademark violations are wrong, and that fraud disgusts me, just as I hate the many other forms of fraud I have to deal with professionally. But I also don't like it when folks start posting that an individual possessing a copy is "illegal" or that selling it will result in a federal trafficking charge when these things are NOT TRUE.

Remember that, according to your logic, Gibson alleged in 2006 that anyone who purchased a Paul Reed Smith was enraged in "patronizing a legitimate front of an organized crime entity" because they alleged that PRS was illegally using their trademarks in a deliberate and organized fashion.

Should we we all feel bad for buying a PRS? Or a Dean? Or a Heritage? Or an Ibanez? Gibson has sued them all alleging deliberate, organized trademark violations.

 

[cybermgk]

There has been a lot of speculation on that, and it's certainly possible, but it is unlikely that it is known to upper management.
I think some of the speculation has arisen from the fact that many of these come with "Epiphone" pickups... but I think at this point, it's been confirmed that they are not the same (wind) as anything Epiphone has sold in recent years.
They COULD be Epi base plates with some generic parts attached... but if these are being made in the Epi factory, why bother? The parts are in the bin.

10 years or so ago, a bunch of either Trijicon or Aimpoint firearm optics hit the market, and there was a small batch of serial numbers confirmed and flagged for warranty denial.
These appeared to be a similar situation that happened to my former boss, who owned a sheet metal production facility in San Jose.
The company was bleeding money, in part because the cousin running the place had a drug problem.
They got rid of him and brought in a new manager. That brought the company back from the brink, but it was still problematic, as they were never able to pull a profit.
My boss spent a couple of months looking into it by flying up and dropping in from time to time, and he found that the problem was apparently inventory and other consumables shrinkage.

Turned out that the new manager was running a 2nd shift, producing products for a side hustle, using the company inventory and machinery, including the gas and laser cutter. At the time, this was one of the few shops in California that could laser-cut 1/4" stainless.

So it can and does happen, but not always with the knowledge of the owners.

I was speaking of the outright fakers, not even Epi employees doing their own thing. The point I was making was all those places you can custom order an exact lp copy, with your company name, or whatever on the headstock also makes fake Gibsons. If you support the company, even if just buying MYGeet named LP copy, you are supporting the same people making outright counterfeits.

Those doing it with Epi equipment is even worse.

 

[cybermgk]

I have not expressed any opinion on the morality of unrestricted world trade in general, or in this particular case. I stated was that it was better for posters not to use phrases like "illegal" "intellectual property theft" "Trademark violation" "trafficking" etc., as these have specific and often complex legal meanings. I also stated that simple possession of an individual copy was not "illegal. "

These facts evidently do not support you narrative so you up the ante with the theorem of "aiding and abetting counterfeiting " and "patronizing a legitimate front of an organized crime entity" to describe the purchase of a instrument that is not counterfeit.

When it come to "patronizing a legitimate front of an organized crime entity," do you have any Chinese made products in your house? ( The answer is yes).

There are equally appalling abuses going on in the LEGITMATE manufacture of branded products in China. Your are probably supporting a lot more child labor, abusive practices, the Chinese Communist party, intellectual property theft and "organized crime" by buying sneakers or consumer electronics than by buying a copy guitar. Under these circumstances, telling a kid that he is "aiding and and abetting a legitimate front of an organized crime entity" for buying a (non-infringing) Chinese guitar, while transmitting that message on Chinese manufactured electronics strikes me as a bit hysterical, and hypocritical.

Actual Trademark violations are wrong, and that fraud disgusts me, just as I hate the many other forms of fraud I have to deal with professionally. But I also don't like it when folks start posting that an individual possessing a copy is "illegal" or that selling it will result in a federal trafficking charge when these things are NOT TRUE.

Remember that, according to your logic, Gibson alleged in 2006 that anyone who purchased a Paul Reed Smith was enraged in "patronizing a legitimate front of an organized crime entity" because they alleged that PRS was illegally using their trademarks in a deliberate and organized fashion.

Should we we all feel bad for buying a PRS? Or a Dean? Or a Heritage? Or an Ibanez? Gibson has sued them all alleging deliberate, organized trademark violations.

COMPLETELY missed my/the point, and the analogy.

It is just simple fact, if you order an LP copy, with your name on the headstock, you are giving money to the same people that ALSO create and sell actual illegal counterfeits. ERGO, you are supporting criminals with that purchase, even if what you bought isn't technically' illegal.

And, I actually try, as hard as I can NOT to buy MIC products. I try not to support the slave labor, money used against us and others, etc. Yes, in some cases you have a choice, do without, or buy MIC. But, when I can, I buy made elsewhere. I can say, currently, almost all (all but one device) of my Guitar and guitar equipment was not made in China. Granted some components my have been, as a majority of electronic components are made there. Surprising amount of other 'stuff', like my TV, were not MIC. I check labels all the time, and buy made in latin america, mexico, even Indonesia, so as not to support the CCP.

My TV is not MIC,

 

[Side Burns]

Not to open pandora’s box. But is there a website where i can order a custom made guitar? People mention it like it’s common.

Agile semi custom was the only thing I found back when i was looking for my neck-through& i think someone said Agile is closing up soon.

 

[CB91710]

I was speaking of the outright fakers, not even Epi employees doing their own thing. The point I was making was all those places you can custom order an exact lp copy, with your company name, or whatever on the headstock also makes fake Gibsons. If you support the company, even if just buying MYGeet named LP copy, you are supporting the same people making outright counterfeits.

Those doing it with Epi equipment is even worse.

If you are referring to the companies that it seemed like Dakota was referring to, where you can order what is effectively a custom "shop" order with anything on the HS, including "Gibson", then I don't disagree at all.
The way it was stated, it sounded like you were inferring that the same companies that produce "Chibsons" are also producing branded models that would not be considered fraudulent, such as Edwards, Solar (made by Washburn), and even Epiphone.
I wasn't actually aware that you could special-order these copies, which was the source of some of my confusion when Dakota started talking about "not even needing Gibson on the headstock"

Ya, I agree that if a factory is making "Chibsons", regardless of whether or not they make models that don't infringe on Gibson's IP, then yes, I have a problem with them.
But the problem is where to direct the outrage... I simply avoid the issue completely by avoiding cheap imports

 

[cybermgk]

If you are referring to the companies that it seemed like Dakota was referring to, where you can order what is effectively a custom "shop" order with anything on the HS, including "Gibson", then I don't disagree at all.
The way it was stated, it sounded like you were inferring that the same companies that produce "Chibsons" are also producing branded models that would not be considered fraudulent, such as Edwards, Solar (made by Washburn), and even Epiphone.
I wasn't actually aware that you could special-order these copies, which was the source of some of my confusion when Dakota started talking about "not even needing Gibson on the headstock"

Ya, I agree that if a factory is making "Chibsons", regardless of whether or not they make models that don't infringe on Gibson's IP, then yes, I have a problem with them.
But the problem is where to direct the outrage... I simply avoid the issue completely by avoiding cheap imports

Yes I meant the first, what Dakota was referring to.

I avoid them, for the most part as well. Only have 2 MIK, and one was bought used, besides my MIA and one MIM

 

[CB91710]

Not to open pandora’s box. But is there a website where i can order a custom made guitar? People mention it like it’s common.

Agile semi custom was the only thing I found back when i was looking for my neck-through& i think someone said Agile is closing up soon.

Apparently there is.
And posting links to the site is prohibited by EnthusedDigital TOS.

A thread reporting a scam site was actually deleted over on StratTalk, under the reason "counterfeit", even though it was actually not... it was just a scam site "selling" guitars for $96.
The site actually appeared in my Yahoo feed.

 

[CB91710]

Yes I meant the first, what Dakota was referring to.

I avoid them, for the most part as well. Only have 2 MIK, and one was bought used, besides my MIA and one MIM

The one guitar that I actually regret buying was my Harley Benton.
It's OK for a $180 guitar (now around $220 plus shipping), but it's a $180 guitar... it is what it is, and it's not worth shipping to a buyer.

 

[cybermgk]

The one guitar that I actually regret buying was my Harley Benton.
It's OK for a $180 guitar (now around $220 plus shipping), but it's a $180 guitar... it is what it is, and it's not worth shipping to a buyer.

Donate it to Guitars for Vets, school, etc. Take the tax deduction (assuming you can)

 

[CB91710]

Donate it to Guitars for Vets, school, etc. Take the tax deduction (assuming you can)

Just did my taxes last night.
Standard deduction is significantly higher than my property tax and mortgage interest... I'd have to donate a lot more than a Harley Benton to be able to save anything writing it off.
I haven't actually needed to file an itemized return since the new tax laws went into effect.

Once the C-Word crap is overwith and things get back to normal, I'll likely donate it to a local music school.

 

[LP1865]

Not to open pandora’s box. But is there a website where i can order a custom made guitar? People mention it like it’s common.

Agile semi custom was the only thing I found back when i was looking for my neck-through& i think someone said Agile is closing up soon.

Theres the Aliexpress and DHGate websites for the cheap Chinese stuff we're hating on here, but if you have a tad larger budget contact @LtDave32, he'll make you a custom one.
Others include Music Maker Guitars from Brazil, and many more if you google custom made guitars

 

[cybermgk]

but if you have a tad larger budget contact @LtDave32, he'll make you a custom one.

There are quite a few like this, small builders making custom MIA guitars. THESE builders, imho is where we should be sending our money, NOT to the CCP. Builders actually building, not just being a middle person between buyer and MIC factories. And, Lt Dave, being one of our own, above the rest.

 

[hbucker]

Not to open pandora’s box. But is there a website where i can order a custom made guitar? People mention it like it’s common.

Agile semi custom was the only thing I found back when i was looking for my neck-through& i think someone said Agile is closing up soon.

FWIW: https://www.kieselguitars.com/customshop/

Using their designs as the platform, these guitars are highly customizable and well regarded quality. They used to be Carvin guitars but they rebranded a few years ago.

 

[martin H]

COMPLETELY missed my/the point, and the analogy.

It is just simple fact, if you order an LP copy, with your name on the headstock, you are giving money to the same people that ALSO create and sell actual illegal counterfeits. ERGO, you are supporting criminals with that purchase, even if what you bought isn't technically' illegal.

I check labels all the time, and buy made in latin america, mexico, even Indonesia, so as not to support the CCP.

My TV is not MIC,

Look at the components inside your TV.

There is really no such thing as "technically illegal." In any developed branch of criminal law an act either falls under the statue or it doesn't.

What I am trying to say ( somewhat inarticulately) is that guitars should be the least of our worries when it come to China! if purchasing a chibson one is "you are supporting criminals with that purchase" the same is true of just about everything purchased from an oppressive totalitarian state in which all enterprises are either state enterprises or exist only at the suffererence of the state .

The use of legal terms aside, I fully understand ( and share) your revulsion for the Chinese system, and am more revolted by the that fact that the the owners of capital in the US , and other western countries have deliberately created and funded an oppressive totalitarian mega-state that may eventually supplant western democracy as we know it. I am doubly revolted that this prime threat to post war liberal democracy was created almost entirely so that western businesses could "increase stockholder values" by moving production to a country with virtually no labor or environmental protections, and poverty level wages, in order to cut costs.

I don't think that cheaper goods, which is all the consumer gets out of this bargain, were worth it. I do not personally own a single Chinese instrument , but I'm sure the keyboard I'm typing on was probably made there. Its almost unavoidable.

 

[cybermgk]

Look at the components inside your TV.

There is really no such thing as "technically illegal." In any developed branch of criminal law an act either falls under the statue or it doesn't.

What I am trying to say ( somewhat inarticulately) is that guitars should be the least of our worries when it come to China! if purchasing a chibson one is "you are supporting criminals with that purchase" the same is true of just about everything purchased from an oppressive totalitarian state in which all enterprises are either state enterprises or exist only at the suffererence of the state .

The use of legal terms aside, I fully understand ( and share) your revulsion for the Chinese system, and am more revolted by the that fact that the the owners of capital in the US , and other western countries have deliberately created and funded an oppressive totalitarian mega-state that may eventually supplant western democracy as we know it. I am doubly revolted that this prime threat to post war liberal democracy was created almost entirely so that western businesses could "increase stockholder values" by moving production to a country with virtually no labor or environmental protections, and poverty level wages, in order to cut costs.

I don't think that cheaper goods, which is all the consumer gets out of this bargain, were worth it. I do not personally own a single Chinese instrument , but I'm sure the keyboard I'm typing on was probably made there. Its almost unavoidable.

Unavoidable, sadly yes.

All you can do, is all you can do. So, I make the effort to avoid sending my money into their system(s) whenever I can.

IMHO, one real easy place is Guitars. There still are LOTS of options, even inexpensive, that don't send money into CCPs hands and coffers. Epiphone still makes some guitars in Indonesia (not that Indonesia is a paramour of ethical goodness, but they aren't out to control the world), S Korea, etc. There are middleman companies, that will make a custom order that use Korean factories, Indonesian. Lot of small builders, popping up every day, here in the US that are actually making them by hand. PRS still has MIK and MII guitars.

You can buy used, guitars MIC. At least that way, money isn't going back there,.

Yes, I mentioned the electronic componants in my post. I know, electronics built elsewhere still have chines capacitors, ic chips etc in them. So, I do what I can, buy made elsewhere, albeit with those parts. Again, all you can do, is all you can do.

 

[Zylo]

It’s simple
This company is making guitars with exactly same body shape headstock and a logo that looks exactly like gibsons..that’s the issue

if I buy a Chinese tv like Hisense not a problem
But if hisense start making TVs and calling it say, Tochiba then thats an issue

 

[goodvibes]