On Wall St., no laws were broken?

KSG_Standard

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Statutory criminal law with jail time and civil lawsuits brought by victims are much more powerful tools to fight corruption than are regulatory rules created and enforced by appointed bureaucrats. Fraud is a crime, strngthen the fraud laws and prosecute offenders ruthlessly and without regard to class, special interest group or political affiliation. Regulation is capricious, weak, politically motivated and in many/most cases useless. Civil fines and regulatory wheeling and dealing isn't nearly the same punishment as being ass raped in prison can be...I imagine.:thumb:
 

KSG_Standard

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Btw...the problem wasn't created by free market capitalism...ALL of the problems occurred within a system of crony capitalism, regulation and gov't interference in the markets...(I.e., the CRA, unnaturally low interest rates due to Fed policy, social engineering by Congress and the regulators, etc...)
 

SteveGangi

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... Fraud is a crime, strngthen the fraud laws and prosecute offenders ruthlessly and without regard to class, special interest group or political affiliation. Regulation is capricious, weak, politically motivated and in many/most cases useless. ...

:applause: :applause: It is time to stop playing patty cake and start filing criminal charges, if in fact crimes were committed (and yes, fraud IS a crime).
 

Caoimhin

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Anyone ever check out the OWS site? They are talking up capping profits,lifetime earnings, and inheritance. They also talk about making minimum wage $115,000 a year. Now what mom and pop shop can afford to pay their employees that?

"USA is a fascist - corporate dictatorship" Occupy Wall Street | NYC Protest for World Revolution
 

geochem1st

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Anyone ever check out the OWS site? They are talking up capping profits,lifetime earnings, and inheritance. They also talk about making minimum wage $115,000 a year. Now what mom and pop shop can afford to pay their employees that?

"USA is a fascist - corporate dictatorship" Occupy Wall Street | NYC Protest for World Revolution

Lots of people post and twitter about a lot of ideas, what matters is what occurs with the voting by the General Assembly and adopted as a stance.

So far there has been only one Occupy affiliation that has come up with demands.... Occupy LA. They have made 10 demands, one of which is:

"The City of Los Angeles to pressure the State to start a convention, as provided for in the Constitution, to remove corporate personhood and money from politics at a national level."

Response from Occupy Los Angeles G.A. to Mayor's Office, LAPD | Occupy Los Angeles


I find it interesting that most of the local government's decisions to forcibly remove their Occupy demonstrators are happening in the same time frame.
 

colchar

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Btw...the problem wasn't created by free market capitalism...ALL of the problems occurred within a system of crony capitalism, regulation and gov't interference in the markets...(I.e., the CRA, unnaturally low interest rates due to Fed policy, social engineering by Congress and the regulators, etc...)


For the 1400th time, this is not true. Effective regulation and government involvement do work. Countries such as Canada, which have effective regulations in place, did not suffer the problems that the US did and not a single Canadian bank required even one penny in bailout money. Why? Because our regulations and government involvement worked. Our banks approached our government a couple of times in the 18-24 months leading up to the crisis in the US asking that regulations be removed and that the government be less involved. Our government told them to get fvcked and that they were not free to do whatever the hell they liked. And guess what - Canada came out of the recession with a stronger economy than any other western country. In fact, the recession only hit us because our main trading partners were in trouble - internally we were fine.

The problem in the US is that regulations were removed or were not enforced. That does not mean that regulation and government involvement does not work, it means that ineffective regulations and ineffective government involvement do not work.

But your point about fraud charges in your earlier post is well taken - those who committed these massive frauds should face criminal and civil penalties for their actions. That they are not facing such charges/penalties points, yet again, to your government's ineffective role in its financial markets.
 

colchar

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Anyone ever check out the OWS site? They are talking up capping profits,lifetime earnings, and inheritance. They also talk about making minimum wage $115,000 a year. Now what mom and pop shop can afford to pay their employees that?

"USA is a fascist - corporate dictatorship" Occupy Wall Street | NYC Protest for World Revolution


The original idea behind the protests was a good one but they failed when A) they tried to be everything to everyone (Save the whales? Come join us! Impose Marxism? Come join us! Save the spotted owl? Come join us! Solar power for everyone? Come join us! No nukes? Come join us! Oh and by the way, every one of these causes is of equal value and is equally important and none should take precedence over any other!) and B) the loonies took over. What you mention here is an example of the loonies taking over.
 

Caoimhin

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The original idea behind the protests was a good one but they failed when A) they tried to be everything to everyone (Save the whales? Come join us! Impose Marxism? Come join us! Save the spotted owl? Come join us! Solar power for everyone? Come join us! No nukes? Come join us! Oh and by the way, every one of these causes is of equal value and is equally important and none should take precedence over any other!) and B) the loonies took over. What you mention here is an example of the loonies taking over.

We're at war and civilians are being killed and it takes money problems for these people to protest. People seem to have a bigger problem with the top rich people than people who are dying.
 

KSG_Standard

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It is true...regulation did exist when the meltdown occurred...as did a great deal of gov't involvement as I outlined...the fact that is was poorly aimed and ineffective IS part of the problem with regulatory controls and "managed" markets. They are too apt to be co-opted by the regulated, and too apt to be politically driven.
 

geochem1st

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We're at war and civilians are being killed and it takes money problems for these people to protest. People seem to have a bigger problem with the top rich people than people who are dying.

And why is it that we are at war? And why is it that people are dying?

I'm sure the poverty stricken gave those orders.
 

Caoimhin

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And why is it that we are at war? And why is it that people are dying?

I'm sure the poverty stricken gave those orders.

Seems like the only problem you have is with people who have a bigger bank account than you..

OWS is about banks not war.
 

KSG_Standard

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Guns and Butter Keynesianism...lot's of people profit from war...defense contractors and the hundreds of thousands of people they employ and all their investors in the market, the oil companies and their employees and stockholders and .GOV and all of it's employees and bondholders.
 

Caoimhin

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So is war the problem or is the problem with what economic class the person who wages and profits belongs to?
 

KSG_Standard

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Smaller, Constitutionally constrained, limited government with a free market economy would be less likely to go to war and would not employ Keynesian or neo-Keynesian economic policy.:thumb:
 

geochem1st

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Nice thread derailment. Back to our regularly scheduled programming:

In 2009, the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) began a civil fraud investigation of over a dozen banking firms that traded and sold mortgage-backed collateralized debt obligations (CDOs). This investigation has engendered subsequent probes into the behavior of Wall Street firms.

Did Wall Street bankers defraud investors by selling them CDOs in order to make a profit for themselves—and a few special clients—when the mortgage market collapsed? Federal prosecutors believe so. In fact, in the spring of 2010, they launched a criminal investigation into the matter, and it’s still ongoing.

Investigators allege that a number of major Wall Street banks (including Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs, J.P. Morgan Chase, Morgan Stanley and UBS) created CDOs in order to sell and then bet against (short) them in the event of a crash. These CDOs include Baldwin 2006-I and AB Spoke, which Morgan Stanley sold investors, and Carina, Cetus and Virgo, which Citigroup, Deutsche and UBS may have sold for fraudulent purposes.

New York’s Attorney General Andrew Cuomo has also begun an investigation into the behavior of Wall Street banks regarding CDOs. Investigators allege that Citigroup, Credit Agricole, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley and UBS gave credit rating agencies misleading data in order to inflate CDO ratings. These agencies in turn have been harshly criticized and even sued for assigning high scores to numerous toxic CDOs.

Furthermore, the U.S. Attorney’s Office of Manhattan and the SEC are collaborating to determine if Wall Street banks misrepresented CDOs to their clients, failing to disclose pertinent facts when trading, marketing and selling them to clients.

Since hearings in Congress revealed that fraudulent conduct on Wall Street precipitated the nation into financial crisis, prosecutors have taken legal action against two traders for Bear Stearns without success. However, legislators are calling for more prosecutions, and criminal probes into Wall Street’s activities widening.

The SEC has subpoenaed Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, J.P. Morgan Chase and UBS, asking that they turn over a wide range of paperwork, including prospectuses and offering documents (final copies as well as drafts) and lists of investors associated with mortgage-related transactions. The SEC has also filed an action in federal court against Goldman Sachs, claiming that a trader on behalf of the company created an investment product designed to fail so that one of the company’s pet hedge-fund clients could bet against it and profit at the expense of less favored Goldman investors. Goldman is purportedly seeking to settle the case out of court.

From 2005 to 2007, diverse Wall Street banks issued CDOs totaling $1.08 trillion. The research firm Thomson Reuters reports that Citigroup, Deutsche Banks and Merrill Lynch issued the greatest dollar amount. J.P. Morgan, Morgan Stanley, UBS and Goldman were numbers five, seven, ten and 14 on the list, respectively."
Securities Fraud Lawyer Blog » Did Wall Street Bankers Commit CDO Fraud?
 

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