Nitro, bare wood and color changes

[Bearmont]

Sighs, owned les Paul's for 20 years now and finally....I decide to register for ML
P. Great stickys, lots of great les paul "porn" and some pretty knowledge folks on here it seems. Perhaps one of knowledgable folks can answer something I got into a discussion over at work...

About ten years ago a friend of mine had a 2002-3 r8 that came in contact with fan that tipped over in his living room. I remember seeing the damage, which was a gouge and scrape sorta pattern on the amber part of the sunburst - that looked normal but the thing that struck me was that on the scraped portion of the gash there was about half a dimed sized chunk of exposed, amber stained wood. What was odd to me was that that amber portion, which was bare wood was darker than the parts of the amber sunburst that still had finish on them. It almost looked as if the nitro lightened the amber. There was no flame or figuring on this part of the guitar either.

So at work today I was discussing guitars and guitar finishes with a co worker and mentioned the aforementioned story. He said that I musta been drunk, lacquer doesn't lightened stained wood etc etc. The guitar never did get repaired and eventually my friend sold it.

To all the finish guys...was I seeing things? Or can I tell my co worker to kick rocks? Can nitro lacquer lighten stained wood? Specifically, amber stained maple? Ahh, my nutty first post!

 

[boney bones lee]

Welcome to the boards.

Perhaps you should take this over to the 'Historic" forum.

 

[RRfireblade]

In short time the bare wood would darken on its own.

Unless you were right there the instant it happened then I might say you were tipsy.

Only other thing, but a long shot, would be if the spinning fan somehow burnished the wood on impact.

 

[Bearmont]

Sighs....hmmm.

 

[Mindfrigg]

I've refinished very old antiques, and over time mahogany, maple, cherry, walnut get a much more blonde appearance. Scratches or chips are difficult to touch up for that reason. Easy to darken a touch up, not so easy to lighten without opaquing or practically painting in the grain. Finish also acts a bit like a lens, refracting light. Touching up a small area matching the color can be tricky. Like a holographic image, it might look perfect from one angle, shift your view..the grain darkens or lightens significantly. It's a very 3d effect compounded with flamed or quilted grains. Adding new finish on a touchup is often noticeably darker looking than the old.

Sorry..too much information?

 

[Bearmont]

You kidding? Love the nerd details! Thanks!!
I guess I'll concede the argument tomorrow...grrr. Perhaps, the finish refracted the light in such a way that the finished portions appeared lighter??

 

[dspelman]

What's likely going on is that the stain in the nitro-protected area of the wood is fading and/or the lacquer itself is ambering. This is something that's been common since the original '59s. UV light in particular will hasten this happening, but the deterioration of the lacquer will naturally make this happen.

The bare wood is a different story -- often it's simply dirt that's darkening the bare spot. Take a look at the fretboard of a well-used maple fretboard tele or strat. you'll find spots of dark (bare) wood that have absorbed oils and acids (and dirt) from handling. This can actually change the wood itself, as well as any finishing products still resident in the wood.

 

[Bearmont]

Hmmmm...fair enough, I can't remember how long it was after the accident that i saw the guitar; although, I don't think it was that long.

Dirt makes sense - I just figured lacquer would have some effect on the color of the wood?

 

[KenG]

Gibson doesn't "stain" it's burst tops. The use "shaders" which are colours added to the nitro and sprayed on top of sealer coats. (so the colour never really gets into the wood at all, in fact never touches it).
So the yellow in the finish over the wood may appear to brighten the colour more than the plain wood itself.
I believe this is why Gibson flame may not always be as deep as PRS stained tops as well. The shaders will obscure some light as they are not 100% clear.

 

[Bearmont]

Gibson doesn't "stain" it's burst tops. The use "shaders" which are colours added to the nitro and sprayed on top of sealer coats. (so the colour never really gets into the wood at all, in fact never touches it).
So the yellow in the finish over the wood may appear to brighten the colour more than the plain wood itself.
I believe this is why Gibson flame may not always be as deep as PRS stained tops as well. The shaders will obscure some light as they are not 100% clear.

Really?? So, the way im understanding this now is: The burst colors are simply "sprayed" on - and the colors are mixed in with the nitro?
So how come when nitro was chipped the color below remained? I must be understanding you incorrectly. You may need to dumb this down for guy like me!

 

[KenG]

Yes the colours are sprayed on. Sometimes the sealer coat may be tinted as a base coat and perhaps some colour seeps into the woods surface in those cases but this is not staining. Sealer coats are meant to close off the surface of the wood to get better coats later without the wood absorbing the finish and telegraphing grain through. Stains are meant to seep into the wood to colour the wood. Two different things here.
Do you have Dan Erlewine's GPRG book? He goes into finishes, (Gibson) sunbursts included and explains the steps needed to repair or even do one from bare woods.

 

[Bearmont]

Ok, that makes more sense. So, it is possible that i wasn't hallucinating. The nitro lacquer could indeed lighten the color underneath it?