Murphy Lab finish falling off?

[calieng]

Excuse me but that last post was really funny.....not one like or happy face. You folks are in a bad mood this weekend.

 

[calieng]

Thank you - finally someone with a sense of humor!

 

[mjross]

As the engineer among this group I thought I should provide this educational presentation on the effects of GRAVITY.


View attachment 572768

I’m an old engineer! I can relate…

 

[ehb]

Gravity constantly pisses folks off....

 

[john550]

After 20 years of experimenting with experimental relicing techniques, one does not have enough experience to know what happens to the relics after 40 years.

A relic'd guitar is not an aged guitar - it's brand new. A stone washed, ripped pair of jeans is not a worn pair of jeans - it is a brand new pair of jeans that's been ripped and stone washed. But after being worn it will actually wear and age. A relic'd guitar is also a brand new product that will eventually age. It's experimental, we don't know what the effect of time and actual wear and tear will produce in due time. We'll have to wait and see. Some of it we're already seeing. No surprise. Expecting that a relic'd guitar would stay as is for any extended period of time would be like expecting stone washed jeans to stay the same forever.

A relic'd guitar is a fake. Like a counterfeit, it just has to last long enough to be sold.

Although an aged guitar may not age as well , as you say . It should not be viewed as a fake , like a counterfeit ,
many of us choose aged as a finish option , It was a + - 9k $ guitar built by Gibson Custom Shop . Not a counterfeit .

 

[Adinol]

No thanks! Gees that’s an extreme repair. I’ll take the properly glued together crack with refin in that area to blend into old finish. Invisible and just as solid as no break

Not interested in turning guitar into a Chibson with a scarf joint

Extreme luthiery!!

My repair was not a scarf joint, it was a graft that had to be done. The customer brought the guitar to me because someone else had already attempted a repair, using Gorilla glue. Parts of the grain were shredded and contaminated with a previously botched repair attempt, using Gorilla glue.

Many priced violins, including Stradivarius violins, have had numerous repairs done on them over the centuries. I've once handled a valuable violin that had a peghead replacement, executed with a scarf joint. Despite the scarf joint the violin still sold for more than a new Mercedes.

Sometimes extreme luthery is the only option for those who want the work done properly and structurally sound.

If you ever have a broken Gibson headstock with an end grain fracture, one might attempt to reglue it without any reinforcements. But it will not hold up. To make that kind of glue joint structurally sound you'll need to take it to a shop where they can do a proper repair, will require some kind of splines or graft.

I've fixed quite a few previously botched headstock repairs. In fact I am working on one as we speak. This one was an previous end grain fracture that someone else tried to fix with two short splines. That previosu repair failed. Now the guitar is on my bench. I first reglued it the way it was, then removed wood to make a graft. If you have any better ideas how to fix this one, I'm all ears.

Perhaps I should change that MADE IN USA into MADE IN CHINA so people know this is just a scarf joint Chibson.

 

[Adinol]

Although an aged guitar may not age as well , as you say . It should not be viewed as a fake , like a counterfeit ,
many of us choose aged as a finish option , It was a + - 9k $ guitar built by Gibson Custom Shop . Not a counterfeit .

You do make a good point.

Here is an entertaining anecdote about Picasso.

An art dealer once invited Picasso to his gallery to have the master himself authenticate some of the paintings that he intended to sell. So, he asked the master himself, "Please tell me if any of these are fakes."

As Picasso started looking at the paintings he went on, "This one's real. This one's real. This one's real. This one's fake. This one's real. This one's fake..." at which point the dealer cut him off, saying, "Oh, Pablo, but I think you made a mistake, I saw you paint this one with my own eyes."

Picasso then said, "It makes no difference who painted it. I can make fake Picassos just like anyone else."

A Murphy Lab Gibson reissue made to look like a Gibson that was made at the Kalamazoo factory, in 1958, and made to look like it had aged over the years and made to look like it has history and provenance, is not what it appears to be. And as discussed in this thread, it doesn't even continue to age in the same way as an old guitar will continue to age.

Although it is not a counterfeit, in a sense that it is an unauthorized copy, it is also not a genuine article, in a sense of what it represents. It is made to look like something that it is not.

When I used the word fake I didn't mean that it is a fake in a sense that it's a counterfeit, but a fake in a sense that it is made to look like something that it is not.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[john550]

So a aged Gibson is like a Picasso , got it !

 

[KeoRS]

Although it is not a counterfeit, in a sense that it is an unauthorized copy, it is also not a genuine article, in a sense of what it represents. It is made to look like something that it is not.

I really loved the analogy. The only thing that is missing out of this interpretation is that you touch and utilize guitars, in contrast with simply looking at it like a painting. I mean yeah, you could touch and use a painting for something like a coffee table top haha, but the purpose of it is for your eyes' consumption.

The visual makeup of a Murphy Lab is one component, but the feel and sound that it makes is its core for me. I recommend that you give one a try. You may not come out of that experience with the same result as I have, but for me my ML was by far the best feeling and sounding guitar I had ever used.

In essence, I returned my ML for a replacement as per Gibson's instructors as they have told me my guitar had a defect. This defect just so happens to affect its visual makeup, however it could ultimately affect its usage and sound with time. It was a hard decision for me to accept to return it and take the gamble that the one they will give me in return connects as much as that one did. Can't wait to try out my replacement when it arrives... fingers crossed.

 

[framos]

... but a fake in a sense that it is made to look like something that it is not.

Well, even on "brand new" LPs, they're making it look like something it was not.

Or did they make lemon bursts back in 1959? It's a brand new finish representing an "aged state" of some other finish.

Your analogy is totally out of place.

 

[calieng]

For decades players have attempted to age their guitars themselves only to ruin the guitar. Best left to the experts.

 

[Adinol]

So a aged Gibson is like a Picasso , got it !

The analogy was more meant to say that I feel a Murphy Lab Gibson is more like a Picasso painting that Picasso would consider to be be a fake. Of course, Picasso was just a witty man that quickly thought of a punch line to get himself out of a situation, as he had clearly messed up his own authentication. But there's no reason to overthink the analogy, anyway.

I really loved the analogy. The only thing that is missing out of this interpretation is that you touch and utilize guitars, in contrast with simply looking at it like a painting. I mean yeah, you could touch and use a painting for something like a coffee table top haha, but the purpose of it is for your eyes' consumption.

The visual makeup of a Murphy Lab is one component, but the feel and sound that it makes is its core for me. I recommend that you give one a try. You may not come out of that experience with the same result as I have, but for me my ML was by far the best feeling and sounding guitar I had ever used.

In essence, I returned my ML for a replacement as per Gibson's instructors as they have told me my guitar had a defect. This defect just so happens to affect its visual makeup, however it could ultimately affect its usage and sound with time. It was a hard decision for me to accept to return it and take the gamble that the one they will give me in return connects as much as that one did. Can't wait to try out my replacement when it arrives... fingers crossed.

You make a very good point about how the guitar feels and plays. Of course that's the most important detail and the look is just eye candy.

As a full time repair tech I've had many ML guitars on my bench, mostly for setups. I believe I've handled more of them than the average player, as this is what I do for a living and I also get to scrutinize all the guitars that I put on my bench, always (and only) using proper tools for the job.

I clearly remember two killer Les Pauls (one of them owned by a buddy of mine). There's no question that great guitars come out of that line.

But as I also just said, I've seem a lot of them. Here are some issues I've come across (in no particular order).

Just about 10 days ago a guy brought an SG for a setup, that he had just purchased. As I looked at he guitar I immediately told him to return the guitar and get a refund. I always do things like that because I have my customer's best interest at heart. Also I need to protect my own professional reputation. So, if I didn't point out to that customer what I saw, the customer might discover the flaw later and think I am not as competent at my job as I should be. That SG had the Vibrola tailpiece mounted off center. So, the strings coming off of the bridge were all slanted to one side, as the Vibrola was a bit to one side.

A few months ago I was handling another SG. That one had a neck problem. The neck was simply too prone to bending, as you play the guitar. So the neck was like a tremolo.

Also a few months ago I saw a 335 that was made to look "aged". All that the "skilled artisans of the Murphy Lab" did to the finish was to rub some 0000 steel wool all over the guitar. You could actually see swirls on the finish, all over the guitar. That looked nothing like any actual aging. In fact I remember seeing the same on another guitar, I can't remember what guitar or when.

I remember one guy brought a ML Les Paul for a setup and as we were talking about his guitar he pointed out to me that there was some rust on the tailpiece posts and was asking me if I could change that. He said he didn't notice as he was buying the guitar, but did notice later and started complaining about how sloppy Gibson is these days. I pointed out to him the fact that this was a Murphy Lab guitar and that he had paid extra money for that rust. Clearly, this was just lack of knowledge and the guy had no idea what he had. But I have to admit that the rust "aging" looked just like they threw a bunch of nuts and bold in salty water and then mounted rusted hardware on the guitar. It didn't look like the result of natural aging on hardware that was living on a guitar for decades, that might have developed some rust spots from sweat.

Lastly, all the Murphy Lab guitars are Plek'd. The Plek simply does not replicate the fret work that they used to do at the old Kalamazoo factory. The way Gibson sets up their Plek machines just lowers the frets height significantly and doesn't even do a perfect job at leveling. I find high and low spots on Plek'd frets all the time. But, if frets are not at the hearth of the guitar, what is? If they are going to charge top dollar to replicate historic guitars they should put the time to do the frets exactly as the old guys used to do it, back in the day. The problem: it's hard to find people that can do that job, using the same tools that they used back in the day. But it also raises the question, is there any point in doing fret level crown and polish using old tools, when we now have better tools? But with better tools we don't actually replicate the work of the old masters.


Here's a picture of a Plek'd fret on a Gibson Firebird. You can clearly see how the CNC cutter of the Plek machine was not aligned. I took a picture of this one, but I've also seen the same thing on a Murphy Lab guitar. So, do we want out ML guitars Plek'd?

Perhaps the word fake is too strong. And I also appreciate the fact that many great guitars come out of the Murphy Lab. we can't have more vintage guitars than what's been made. And we really can't make genuine vintage guitars. But when a lot of people want them, what's the solution? I don't have the answer.

 

[OBLP]

Adinol,

If all you wanted to do was talk about guitar repairs, thermodynamics, and your clients guitar problems, there are better ways to enter a forum and open up the floor. However, what you have done, and countless others, is found the busiest corner to place your soap box (which seems to be fairly common with the anti-relic crowd). There is a way to post a dissenting point of view and then there is the common unprompted anti-relic post suggesting the other preference is somehow a lower standard or someone is being duped for buying something you don't agree with.

Figure out that grand forum entrance and you won't feel the need to post so many follow up tangents to make up for your initial impulsive stream of consciousness.

 

[kewl kat]

I think that everyone realizes this is an emotionally packed topic. I love my lp's and 335's and as such will defend Gibson when asked. That being said, if someone has some first hand experience, perhaps even extensive experience seeing ML finishes and QC, this appears to be a pretty good place to show and express them. Given the thread title, everyone should be open minded to differing opinions other than their own. It would boring otherwise, right?

 

[OBLP]

I think that everyone realizes this is an emotionally packed topic. I love my lp's and 335's and as such will defend Gibson when asked. That being said, if someone has some first hand experience, perhaps even extensive experience seeing ML finishes and QC, this appears to be a pretty good place to show and express them. Given the thread title, everyone should be open minded to differing opinions other than their own. I would boring otherwise, right?

Absolutely. All for it! I have definitely paid attention to the experiences people are having with some of the ML's and I value any insight into any QC issues as I am currently waiting on one and hope I don't experience the same thing. I was addressing the all too common soap box opinion posts regarding relic/aged guitars being fakes/imitations/etc., which are irrelevant to QC issues and opinion of quality.

 

[Gold Tone]

My repair was not a scarf joint, it was a graft that had to be done. The customer brought the guitar to me because someone else had already attempted a repair, using Gorilla glue. Parts of the grain were shredded and contaminated with a previously botched repair attempt, using Gorilla glue.

Many priced violins, including Stradivarius violins, have had numerous repairs done on them over the centuries. I've once handled a valuable violin that had a peghead replacement, executed with a scarf joint. Despite the scarf joint the violin still sold for more than a new Mercedes.

Sometimes extreme luthery is the only option for those who want the work done properly and structurally sound.

If you ever have a broken Gibson headstock with an end grain fracture, one might attempt to reglue it without any reinforcements. But it will not hold up. To make that kind of glue joint structurally sound you'll need to take it to a shop where they can do a proper repair, will require some kind of splines or graft.

I've fixed quite a few previously botched headstock repairs. In fact I am working on one as we speak. This one was an previous end grain fracture that someone else tried to fix with two short splines. That previosu repair failed. Now the guitar is on my bench. I first reglued it the way it was, then removed wood to make a graft. If you have any better ideas how to fix this one, I'm all ears.

View attachment 573955

Perhaps I should change that MADE IN USA into MADE IN CHINA so people know this is just a scarf joint Chibson.

Scarf joint and Chibson were sarcasm, of course it’s not a scarf joint, may as well be though

There is never a reason to remove such a massive amount of healthy wood, never

A proper glue joint is stronger than the wood it joins.

No need for massive grafts far outside the line of demarcation

No need for splints, screws, bolts

Completely unnecessary “over repair”

It’s a reissue guitar, not a vintage violin (also not a clarinet nor a bongo drum) apples and oranges

That’s a nasty repair

 

[Aero84]

Can anyone confirm if the finish issue has been resolved? Looking at buying a ML ultra light aged produced in December 2021.

Thanks.

 

[Torshalla]

According to Gibson the issue was solved.
I have not seen any complaints on the forums for guitars made after summer 2021 at least…
My personal opinion, which is worth nothing haha, is that with a December 2021 manufacturing date you are on the safe side…

 

[Aero84]

According to Gibson the issue was solved.
I have not seen any complaints on the forums for guitars made after summer 2021 at least…
My personal opinion, which is worth nothing haha, is that with a December 2021 manufacturing date you are on the safe side…

Thanks. At least they had enough time…

The checking also looks very different on the recent ones, at least compared to those on the pictures which were affected. Checking is more subtle and more straight lines

 

[john550]

.