More PC bullshit

Roberteaux

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I wonder if NAACP will get around to demanding the dismantling of the Ulysses S. Grant Memorial in Washington, DC, seeing as Grant owned slaves... as did Benjamin Butler and a few other top commanders in the Union Army.


In Grant's case, he never manumitted his slaves until the very night before the 13th Amendment went into effect.

When asked why the delay in freeing his slaves, Grant's reply was along the lines of, "They were valuable, and nobody just throws away anything of value willingly".

***************​

But alas: I see that the tiresome Moral Melee concerning the US Civil War threatens to manifest itself once again, here in the hallowed halls of MLP.

Before it does, I'd mention this much: at the funeral of Ulysses S. Grant, the pallbearers were a mixture of former generals from both the Union and Confederate armies.

The survivors from the respective sides of the quarrel even staged various reunions, where veterans from both sides gathered together as a pleasurable social activity-- usually on the very battlefields where they had fought one another in years past.

I think that most of these photos (except for the one taken at a cemetery) come from the 1913 reunion that was held at Gettysburg, PA.










It's interesting to me, that these former soldiers were willing to drop the bellic controversy so as to show respect for one another-- rather than to flame one side or the other, the way the modern keyboard warrior is so likely to do.

I think that's because they had more than just a Big Opinion on the line in the actual battles. I believe that most of them also subsequently came to realize that Unity was a far more important element in national security and a peaceful society than an endless battle to prove how righteous and morally superior they were to one another.

To those veterans, "United We Stand, Divided We Fall" was more than just a Blue-Eyed Soul song from the 70's.

Meanwhile: sanctimony and inflammatory proclamations pretty much suck-- though they are sometimes useful in identifying inherently quarrelsome individuals and separating them from those who are generally a bit more thoughtful and objective.

And as for the war itself?

I guess I'd go with what Oscar Wilde had to say about the Truth, which was this:

"The truth is rarely pure and never simple"

--R
 

Bill Hicklin

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Those names should be removed, but it should have nothing to do with race, PC culture, offending people, or the NAACP. It's because those people were leaders on the losing side of a war to form an unrecognized republic and have the Southern states secede from the country. They lost. They were traitors. Period. Are there schools named after Benedict Arnold?
There are schools named after George Washington. What's the difference? Washington won. Lee lost. GW was every bit as much a traitor, but winners write history
 

Death Incarnate

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There are schools named after George Washington. What's the difference? Washington won. Lee lost. GW was every bit as much a traitor, but winners write history
Huh? That’s the exact point I was making. Washington was on the winning side. Jackson, Lee, and Davis were on the losing side. Losers should not have schools named after them, because winners write history. Not sure how my post was unclear.
 

JTM45

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The modern cowboys can’t stomach what these guys did, be it right or wrong, it’s history. Those whose forget it are doomed a greater version of it.
 

lunchbox

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I still don't understand why they get all upset. The Dixiecrat south lost. That's about all that really matters.

 

Bytor1958

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It's sad there are people that have such low self esteem they have to create things to make themselves feel better.

That's what is all comes down too. Their life sucks and they are in dire need.
 

MikeyTheCat

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A lot of the naming of buildings and erecting of statues was a direct result of the civil rights movement. Awful lot of Confederate statues went up in the 1950's and 60's. That doesn't seem coincidental to me. So I'm not shedding any tears for poor old Robert E Lee as his name gets removed from another school. You start removing him from text books and I'll probably be pissed, but I'm perfectly fine with not continuing to celebrate his name.
You ain’t from around here are you boy?
 

MikeyTheCat

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We did get this by the highly overrated Kehinde Wiley.
I’m still pissed that Arthur Ashe didn’t get a more dignified statue.

 

Marshall & Moonshine

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I have a conflicted opinion on this issue. I live in central Washington. A place where Confederate General Robert E Lee never stepped foot in his entire life. A place with absolutely no connection whatsoever to the man other than he was an American and people know his name.

There is a grade school down the street from me that used to be "Robert E Lee Elementary School". Someone bitched, they had some meetings, and now they changed the name. To be economical and not have to change the entire sign out front, they just removed the "Robert E", and now it is just called "Lee Elementary".

Are they erasing history? I don't know. The school probably shouldn't have been named after the guy in the first place in my opinion. For fuck sakes, the south lost the damn war. How much do we need to celebrate the losers of a war from 150+ years ago? And as I said before, it had nothing to do with Washington State. Teach the civil war in class, sure, I'm all for learning history. But do we need to keep naming things after these people and putting up statues of their likeness? I'm no snowflake bitching about being triggered, but it all really seems unnecessary.
Didn't Washington own slaves??
Maybe they should all just STFU.
We're trying to hold historical figures up to modern morality and I guarantee you that nobody will hold up as a Saint. Not white people, not black people, not injuns, not orientals. Everyone had "flaws", by today's standards, and who knows what tomorrow's standards will be?? People 100 years from now will look at us like we were damned ogers. I'd bet MLK had some private views on the LGBTQ community that wouldn't play today, but he probably never wrote that stuff down.

I do like your point from another post that says a lot of these things were named in the 50's and 60's as a reaction to the civil rights movement. In light of that, I can see re-naming/removing things that don't really serve any historical purpose. If there's a statue of Stonewall Jackson on a battlefield site where he won, that makes sense. Stop and discuss history with your kids. Talk about the battle, the war, and the real reasons behind it.
But to put it up somewhere in the western US is just being dickish.



You mean "Indigenous People's Day"? The movement is already underway.
As long as I still get the overtime, I really don't care.
 

ErictheRed

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This is very interesting. Can someone describe what "other iconography" might be in the context of this graph?

s
Plaques at national or state parks, courthouse or other government buildings, public spaces and parks or seashore, etc. Anything that isn't a school or statue.
 

MikeyTheCat

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Those names should be removed, but it should have nothing to do with race, PC culture, offending people, or the NAACP. It's because those people were leaders on the losing side of a war to form an unrecognized republic and have the Southern states secede from the country. They lost. They were traitors. Period. Are there schools named after Benedict Arnold?
Tell King George about it.
 

tjbitt

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I live in Charlottesville , Va and everything is either being torn down or renamed. Two of our city parks have been renamed from Lee Park and Jackson Park to Emancipation Park and Justice Park. They are still trying to remove Lee Statue and Andrew Jackson Statues.
Merriwhether Lewis is from here in Albemarle county and there is a large bronze statue of Lewis and Clark with Sacacagawea crouched behind them. Some Native american woman from Idaho came and got her feelz hurt and now they are taking that statue down.
A grade school a mile from my house is being renamed because the School superintendant the school is named after made remarks about integration in an article from back in the 50's.
Every week it's something else. Glad I'm moving.

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Pop1655

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After his home, small farm and entire town of Bellefonte were all burned to the ground by advancing northern troops my great grandfather enlisted in the Alabama infantry. I’ll take exception to being told that someone who signed up to fight the people that burned his way of life into non existence was a traitor or shared the thoughts or beliefs of a traitor.
 

Death Incarnate

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They were on the wrong side of history, that's for sure...but I wouldn't call them traitors.
But alas: I see that the tiresome Moral Melee concerning the US Civil War threatens to manifest itself once again, here in the hallowed halls of MLP.
...
Meanwhile: sanctimony and inflammatory proclamations pretty much suck-- though they are sometimes useful in identifying inherently quarrelsome individuals and separating them from those who are generally a bit more thoughtful and objective.
Maybe I should have not used the word traitors. If that came across sanctimonious and inflammatory, I apologize.
I'm not trying to be quarrelsome. I stand by everything else in my original post:

Those names should be removed, but it should have nothing to do with race, PC culture, offending people, or the NAACP. It's because those people were leaders on the losing side of a war to form an unrecognized republic and have the Southern states secede from the country. They lost. They were traitors. Period. Are there schools named after Benedict Arnold?
Statues at battle grounds are fine. Statues of former slave owners is fine. It's not about applying today's morals on the figures from the past, or rewriting history, or judging either side through today's lenses. It's beyond bizarre to me, there are the names of leaders on government buildings, for losers of a faction that tried to secede from the country. I don't get how that makes me part of Moral Melee. It's not about self righteous morality. It seems like common sense. They renamed buildings (and entire cities!) in Russian after the fall of communism. I don't think they were part of a moral melee.

And as for the war itself?
I guess I'd go with what Oscar Wilde had to say about the Truth, which was this:
"The truth is rarely pure and never simple"
Agreed. I wouldn't even be surprised if it comes out one day, it was never slavery or secession or international King Cotton relations, but that the first shot was orchestrated by a guy who made uniforms for both sides and made a huge profit on the war.
 




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