mismatched ohms and lower volume?

cherrysunburst00

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Wow, if this bad boy is the 60 watter you're talking about, that is MASSIVE distortion!! I would have liked for the wattage feature to be demo'd too. Is it really a reduction in the wattage, or is it power scaling but not using London Power Scaling (which is trademarked)

That is the case with my Phaez--it is labeled "watts" but I think in reality it is using voltage reduction (?) which will also supposedly prolong tube life too

I'm hoping the EQ pedal will help but if it doesn't it will probably go back.. I really like that thump and punch. Might have to trade it for the 60w because it has a wattage dial that will allow me to saturate the tubes more.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyBeFML4uVE[/ame]
 

cybermgk

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I'm hoping the EQ pedal will help but if it doesn't it will probably go back.. I really like that thump and punch. Might have to trade it for the 60w because it has a wattage dial that will allow me to saturate the tubes more.

And big bottle glass too. 6L6 which generally produces more bottom end, but will also have a transformer that will drive more bass too.

Have you tried pulling the bass knob out (they are push pull). Pulled out, if I remember effects the width of bass frequencies affected by the bass knob. THat along with the Dynamics knob can affect the bottom end. Wasn't enogh for me ergo sold and got the 6505. I also liked the 1 watt setting better for this, as you could get the EL84s going.

LOT of EL84 amps don't get that low end thump. A tiny bit is because of EL84s, but most is amp design and primarily the O Tranny used.

But, there is also Fletcher Munson effect (why home stereos used to have a DEEP button for low volumes to counteract. We hear a narrower band at lower volumes. More Mid focused. AND your driving less air, which makes us percieve less bass (even if it is actually there).
 

cherrysunburst00

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Time for another analogy :)...

NOTE: If folks are getting value from these dissertations, I'll keep doing them, when I think I have knowledge. Otherwise, I can stop if they are annoying.

NO, NO, cybermgk, PLEASE keep on with the terrific analogies & dissertations. I love 'em. I just don't want you to get sick of my questions. I clearly have a lot to learn. I thought about pm'ing you, but I want for others to be able to learn as well.

I checked the owner's manuals for both my original Lionheart combo and the new Studio 5.
1)the combo indicates that it can power an 8-16 ohm extension cabinet (and the supplied speaker is 8 ohms). There is an adjustment switch for 4 ohms in case I want to add another 8 ohm cabinet.

2)The new Studio (which is a head) says that it can power an 8-16 ohm cabinet.

So, am I safe in presuming that both can safely drive a 16 ohm single 12"?

Interestingly, the Studio 5 head also has a caveat: "Unlike many valve amplifiers, the L5 Studio is designed to run either with or without speakers connected" perhaps because it has a USB to plug in to a computer???
 
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cybermgk

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Wow, if this bad boy is the 60 watter you're talking about, that is MASSIVE distortion!! I would have liked for the wattage feature to be demo'd too. Is it really a reduction in the wattage, or is it power scaling but not using London Power Scaling (which is trademarked)

That is the case with my Phaez--it is labeled "watts" but I think in reality it is using voltage reduction (?) which will also supposedly prolong tube life too



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyBeFML4uVE

Well, they more or less are the same. If they are true power scaling, they are reducing the B+ voltage, which effectively does lower the output wattage produced.

SOME are Post Phase Inverter Master Volumes.

Haven't seen the schematic for the bigger Ironhearts, so I don't really know.

CONSENSUS out there seems to lead towards it being a Master Volume of sorts.

BUT,

All the way to the left apparently doesn't silence the amp, which, if it were a MV, it would.

The manual describes it as
"The Watts control adjusts the signal level within the power amplifier, allowing it to be driven harder at lower volume levels. For
full output power, running the power tubes at maximum levels, turn this control fully clockwise.
To reduce output volume, turn this control
to the left. This can be useful in practice environments, or when it is desirable to push the preamp hard but control the output level.
"

Which is REALLY confusing. The red part reads like voltage adjusting, wattage adjustment. As that is how you would drive the O tubes harder at lower volumes.

But, the blue part reads just like a MV. Push the preamp hard for preamp distortion, adjust the output volume.

So who knows. MAYBE it's a hybrid of both.
 

cybermgk

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NO, NO, cybermgk, PLEASE keep on with the terrific analogies & dissertations. I love 'em. I just don't want you to get sick of my questions. I clearly have a lot to learn. I thought about pm'ing you, but I want for others to be able to learn as well.

I checked the owner's manuals for both my original Lionheart combo and the new Studio 5.
1)the combo indicates that it can power an 8-16 ohm extension cabinet (and the supplied speaker is 8 ohms). There is an adjustment switch for 4 ohms in case I want to add another 8 ohm cabinet.

2)The new Studio (which is a head) says that it can power an 8-16 ohm cabinet.

So, am I safe in presuming that both can safely drive a 16 ohm single 12"?

Interestingly, the Studio 5 head also has a caveat: "Unlike many valve amplifiers, the L5 Studio is designed to run either with or without speakers connected" perhaps because it has a USB to plug in to a computer???
If they state it can, then yes, it should be okay. I have even seen some amps that can sense the load impedance and adjust which O tranny tap it uses. I don't think that's the case here, but If laney says it is okay, then I'd go by that.

Combo must have 2 taps, likey a 4 ohm and the 16 that can be used for 16 and 8.
 

cherrysunburst00

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Oh yes, I know about post phase inververter master volumes. My Dr. Z Monza (a rock 'n' roll BEAST) has 1. I believe that it works just before the power tubes, so it's not reducing the power tube output? Regardless of how Doc Z did it, it is simply glorious, and seems like pret' near all Monza enthusiasts agree on that.

As for the Phaez, I specifically asked for powerscaling, but I don't think that Randy is a licensee of London Power Scaling, so he cannot use that name. I believe that is also the case with the Egnater Rebel 20 (they had 1 at G.C. and it too said "wattage" on the faceplate, but I could swear that I remember reading that they employed power scaling technology).

:cool: Your very first sentence (which I highlighted) FINALLY explains to me in verbiage I can understand how power scaling works

Regarding the Ironheart, well it wouldn't be the first innovation from Laney.

THANKS, cybermgk YOU DA MAN!!!

Well, they more or less are the same. If they are true power scaling, they are reducing the B+ voltage, which effectively does lower the output wattage produced.

SOME are Post Phase Inverter Master Volumes.

Haven't seen the schematic for the bigger Ironhearts, so I don't really know.

CONSENSUS out there seems to lead towards it being a Master Volume of sorts.

BUT,

All the way to the left apparently doesn't silence the amp, which, if it were a MV, it would.

The manual describes it as
"The Watts control adjusts the signal level within the power amplifier, allowing it to be driven harder at lower volume levels. For
full output power, running the power tubes at maximum levels, turn this control fully clockwise.
To reduce output volume, turn this control
to the left. This can be useful in practice environments, or when it is desirable to push the preamp hard but control the output level.
"

Which is REALLY confusing. The red part reads like voltage adjusting, wattage adjustment. As that is how you would drive the O tubes harder at lower volumes.

But, the blue part reads just like a MV. Push the preamp hard for preamp distortion, adjust the output volume.

So who knows. MAYBE it's a hybrid of both.
 
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jchrisf

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Wow, if this bad boy is the 60 watter you're talking about, that is MASSIVE distortion!! I would have liked for the wattage feature to be demo'd too. Is it really a reduction in the wattage, or is it power scaling but not using London Power Scaling (which is trademarked)

That is the case with my Phaez--it is labeled "watts" but I think in reality it is using voltage reduction (?) which will also supposedly prolong tube life too

Yes.. that is the one. It is really popular with the death metal, dropped tuned and seven/eight string guys because of this but it is very versatile too and can get the tones I want. I think the dial does work the way you described even though it is labeled a wattage dial. With the Studio version you don't have this feature and control the volume with the channel volume, however, with this 60watt head you can turn the channel volume up and use the wattage dial to control the volume level which allows you to push the tubes harder. I just read 20 pages of posts over at the seven string forum on this. :)

And big bottle glass too. 6L6 which generally produces more bottom end, but will also have a transformer that will drive more bass too.

Have you tried pulling the bass knob out (they are push pull). Pulled out, if I remember effects the width of bass frequencies affected by the bass knob. THat along with the Dynamics knob can affect the bottom end. Wasn't enogh for me ergo sold and got the 6505. I also liked the 1 watt setting better for this, as you could get the EL84s going.

LOT of EL84 amps don't get that low end thump. A tiny bit is because of EL84s, but most is amp design and primarily the O Tranny used.

But, there is also Fletcher Munson effect (why home stereos used to have a DEEP button for low volumes to counteract. We hear a narrower band at lower volumes. More Mid focused. AND your driving less air, which makes us percieve less bass (even if it is actually there).

I have tried to pull them and it didn't help as you know. I was going to either get this Laney or the 6505MH and the Laney seemed to be more versatile.. maybe I should have gotten the Peavey. What is funny though is they have the same tubes.. how does the Peavey get more bottom end?:dunno:
 

cybermgk

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I have tried to pull them and it didn't help as you know. I was going to either get this Laney or the 6505MH and the Laney seemed to be more versatile.. maybe I should have gotten the Peavey. What is funny though is they have the same tubes.. how does the Peavey get more bottom end?:dunno:
Yea, I know :) I just wasn't certain what level of thump you wanted/liked. Wasn't enough for me with the Laney either.

Don't feel bad, I went IRT Studio first then 6505MH.

How does Peavey get it? Wish I knew. ONE thing is it has a real resonance control. Laney has that Dynamics, and it has aspects of a resonance control, but really isn't. But even with the Resonance dialed back it's still there.

On the 1, and 5 watt settings, at home friendly volumes, through a 2x12, I can rattle everything in the room with palm muted chunka chunkas with the 6505mh. Talking serious rattling from the low end vibrations, windows, glass, nick nacks, anything not tied down..........

I did like the IRT's clean channel better, and the seperate eq and controls, reamping etc.

IF I had just one or 2 amps, and covered a lot of tonal/genre ground, and particularly liked reamping with tube tone, then Laney IRT Studio all the way.

But, I have quite a few amps, and have moved towards amps that excel at a thing, compared to 1 that does a lot good, for the studio.

NOW, that said, have the Fender Custom Deluxe Reverb and pedals to do a lot of things good outside the studio.
 

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But, I have quite a few amps, and have moved towards amps that excel at a thing, compared to 1 that does a lot good, for the studio.

What would you recommend for a good bedroom tube amp that can get good cleans and good 80's metal (Ratt, Dokken, etc.) and have some bottom end?
 

cherrysunburst00

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Depending on what your budget is, there are some Marshall DSL offerings. I've never played a DSL, but it seems like that might fit the bill. I'm considering a DSL 1H (50th Anniversary) but maybe the DSL 5?

What would you recommend for a good bedroom tube amp that can get good cleans and good 80's metal (Ratt, Dokken, etc.) and have some bottom end?
 

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For the bedroom, you are always gonna come out ahead with a modeling amp, unless you can get a little volume going. Or get a pedal for about any tube amp you want. I get hard rock at whisper levels with my 50w JCM 800, with a pedal through the low input. ;)
But a modeling amp hardly costs more than the pedal itself, and will do much more, and possibly be upgradable with software.
Those things do 80s metal all day long.
 

cybermgk

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What would you recommend for a good bedroom tube amp that can get good cleans and good 80's metal (Ratt, Dokken, etc.) and have some bottom end?

IMHO, for tube amps, it comes down to 2 things for 'bedroom' volume good tone. Does it get the tone you want with out output tube saturation (cause, even at 1 watt, we are loud when that happens), and is it, can it be, EQed for how/what we hear at lower volumes. Many SS and Modelers have this. But, some tube amps do as well.

If it has to be tube, at bedroom levels with good cleans. Amps that I have personally used/owned:

Tube:
Peavey ValveKing II MH - Looser bottom end than the 6505MH, less gain, but capable of 80s rock/metal, even 90s grunge. Cleans as good as you can get this side of fender/vox, imho. Better than the Laney IRT 15. More marshall flavored, cleans but very nice. Dirt is more to the Marshall side as well, with less Marshall mids. Can get good dirt tone from just preamp, but can also sweeten with the EL84s start singing a LITTLE. THis can be done, at home volumes, at 1 watt setting (actually seems a little less than 1), and 5, with a tube screamer. Loves dirt pedals on clean. Plexi Drive pedal into clean IS Marshall tone.

Peavey 6505 MH - Sounds like a 6505/5150. Pretty much Van Halen and a lot of other 80s/90s metal bands. Tremendous bottom end thump. Majority of it's tone is preamp stages for dirt. Ergo, good at low vols Highest gain channel can get very compressed. Sustain for days. Cliche, I guess, but, one can get singing sustain at home volume, easily.

Marshall DSL15 - DSL gets it's dirt tone mostly from preamp distortion, not really O tube. PLUS Amp has a DEEP button, that counteracts some fletcher munson effect. Clean Channel is pretty good. Not VK II good, but close. Slight edge over the IRT Studio clean. 6V6 tubes. Takes pedals well too. NOW, I had to mod mine, because, IMHO the red channel using the highest gain voice from a bigger DSL was a mistake. Too little useable range on gain knob, and overly compressed fizzy at top. Modded mine to the first voice on the dirt channel, minus a little gain, and adjusted the frequency curve a little darker on red channel. No FX loop, so Reverb an issue when dirty. DSL5 uses the lead 1 lesser gain voice I hear, so maybe that is an option.

Orange OR15 - But forget the clean (except for crunching, or slightly dirty clean). But it IS my Brit Rock Dirt tone.Also, depends on your bedroom volume definition. For me, it gets tone I like at volume levels not damaging to the ear, unprotected, if your have a house. Apartment MIGHT be too loud. Has good low end thump, but that disappears below 3 on the volume. and at 3 and above (see above). Has a loop the DSL15 doesn't. Just 1 Channel though.

Tweaker 15 with pedals - Clean with the VK II, maybe better Didn't like the dirt as much.

Bugera 333XL - K, don't laugh. It's a 120w amp (but that is peak, if rated like other amps, more like 100w). But, it has very good low volume, preamp tone AND the XL switch which is designed to mitigate low volume, fletcher munson stuff. Also, can change/thicken the tone a little with channel vol up, MV down. Granted, cranked, it can sing well too.

Blackstar HT-1R - VK II MH is imho just a better version of this. But this is cheaper. I also think it's dirt is more compressed, less organic. BUT, that does fit with the metal your talking.

Laney IRT Studio - We've discussed. 6505 and OR15 do better than it's Lead and Crunch channels respectively, have the low end, and VK II does the Marshall Clean better.

Common theme above. I aimed for amps for Home/studio, lower vol use. Still have the Bugera (for now, really doesn't provide anything the others don't, but doubt I'd get many takers selling it used), Two peaveys and the Orange.

SS
Hotone Heart Attack - Hits the Mesa thing, amazing tube feel and response from SS, surprisingly.

Blacstar ID60TVP Head - As close as I have come to Tube tone, feel and response, at a price I can afford or am willing to pay (i.e. no Axe FX, Kempoer for me). But ANY ID TVP would do. I just have the 60watt head. Need the right speaker for lower vols. Cores are good. But the TVP tech (Total Valve Power) is worth the price of admission

Thats what I have, have had. Also had a Peavey Vypr (which would fit the bill), and a couple of older PODs, but the ID TVP, imho blows them away, aint close.

But there are other SS/modelers that others are high on. Mustang, Yama THs as well. Prefered the Blackstar ID TVP over mustang for a lot of reasons, including tone. But, ymmv. Did try a Yamaha, and di like what I heard when I did. Just couldn't see it getting time from above, except to play MP3s. BUT, it is designed for very low volumes.
 

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Tube:
Peavey ValveKing II MH - Looser bottom end than the 6505MH, less gain, but capable of 80s rock/metal, even 90s grunge. Cleans as good as you can get this side of fender/vox, imho. Better than the Laney IRT 15. More marshall flavored, cleans but very nice. Dirt is more to the Marshall side as well, with less Marshall mids. Can get good dirt tone from just preamp, but can also sweeten with the EL84s start singing a LITTLE. THis can be done, at home volumes, at 1 watt setting (actually seems a little less than 1), and 5, with a tube screamer. Loves dirt pedals on clean. Plexi Drive pedal into clean IS Marshall tone.

Damn.. This was my first tube amp a year ago. The cleans were amazing but the distortion had issues and no bottom end. I think I got one with a bad tube but didn't know it and just thought I didn't like it. Ate the cost sending it back.

SS
Hotone Heart Attack - Hits the Mesa thing, amazing tube feel and response from SS, surprisingly.

I just discovered these last week on YouTube. Sounded great and cheap but I've heard they have problems. Thought about getting the Marshall and Fender ones.

Blacstar ID60TVP Head - As close as I have come to Tube tone, feel and response, at a price I can afford or am willing to pay (i.e. no Axe FX, Kempoer for me). But ANY ID TVP would do. I just have the 60watt head. Need the right speaker for lower vols. Cores are good. But the TVP tech (Total Valve Power) is worth the price of admission

Thats what I have, have had. Also had a Peavey Vypr (which would fit the bill), and a couple of older PODs, but the ID TVP, imho blows them away...

Damn again :) I was going to get a ID60TVP but got a Vypyr VIP 2 instead and have never been completely happy since... My search might have been over then.

I've been thinking about getting the 100watt ValveKing ii. It goes down to 5 Watts and should have the tubes for better bottom than the MH? They are cheap too. The MH was really cheap when I got mine but they have to up quiet a bit since then.
 

jchrisf

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I just wanted to post one last thing. First I wanted to apologize for taking this thread off topic. But just in case anyone was wondering about what I posted earlier about the EQ pedal. I got it yesterday (Yay amazon prime) and it did thicken up my tone a lot and gave it some more bass. I'm not sure I like it enough but I have 45 days to decide with MF (Yay MF). I just ordered an Overdrive Pedal because I've heard that could add a lot more punch to my tone as well. I really hate that I have to buy pedals to achieve this at bedroom levels. I really want to keep this amp but if it doesn't get the tone and punch/thump I want at bedroom levels it is going back.

The EQ gave it a big boost... If I increased the volume on the amp it was still thin but the EQ increased the volume in a way that sounded good. I wouldn't say I noticed much thump but definitely more punch which might not be too bad. I'm still considering getting the 60w version or the 100w VK ii to compare. They don't have these in any shops around me.

So mismatching the ohms didn't help me at all. I noticed on my amp that it sounded better matched.
 

cherrysunburst00

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First of all, don't worry about taking the thread "off topic" My quest for knowledge was answered.

Secondly, if you are having any doubts I really want to keep this amp but if it doesn't get the tone and punch/thump I want at bedroom levels it is going back. I would (unsolicited advice) send it back because it's going to gnaw at you and you will most likely be searching for something else. And at that point, you won't be able to send it back and will eat a loss if you sell it. Just my .02 (and that's probably all it's worth :laugh2:). Sounds like you have other alternatives in mind


I just wanted to post one last thing. First I wanted to apologize for taking this thread off topic. But just in case anyone was wondering about what I posted earlier about the EQ pedal. I got it yesterday (Yay amazon prime) and it did thicken up my tone a lot and gave it some more bass. I'm not sure I like it enough but I have 45 days to decide with MF (Yay MF). I just ordered an Overdrive Pedal because I've heard that could add a lot more punch to my tone as well. I really hate that I have to buy pedals to achieve this at bedroom levels. I really want to keep this amp but if it doesn't get the tone and punch/thump I want at bedroom levels it is going back.

The EQ gave it a big boost... If I increased the volume on the amp it was still thin but the EQ increased the volume in a way that sounded good. I wouldn't say I noticed much thump but definitely more punch which might not be too bad. I'm still considering getting the 60w version or the 100w VK ii to compare. They don't have these in any shops around me.

So mismatching the ohms didn't help me at all. I noticed on my amp that it sounded better matched.
 

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