Making a mess of a satin finish

[LPTDMSV]

For no very good reason I have been removing the black satin finish of the back of my guitar. Well it's easier than learning to play properly

Look to me like Gibson did a single coat blow over of the black paint. I don't see any grain filler. I don't know if I would see anything to show if sanding sealer had been used?

I think I will have to stop wet sanding now, there's too much exposed grain.

Comments and insults welcome!

 

[pshupe]

I guess it begs the question why are you wet sanding? Are you just trying to remove the finish? IMO, and I may be wrong, wet sanding is reserved for higher grits where you want to level or fine sand a finish. The wet sanding helps unclog the fine grit sand paper. If you just want to remove finish a chemical removing agent would work well or a higher grit paper would also work well.

Regards Peter.

 

[emoney]

Agree with Peter and also I'll throw in this; lacquer thinner is easily had and if you're trying to remove what's there will make your life a lot easier.

At the very least, stop with the water and get a more aggressive grit sandpaper. Save the wet/dry stuff for when it comes time to finish the new coats.

 

[LPTDMSV]

I guess it begs the question why are you wet sanding? Are you just trying to remove the finish? IMO, and I may be wrong, wet sanding is reserved for higher grits where you want to level or fine sand a finish. The wet sanding helps unclog the fine grit sand paper. If you just want to remove finish a chemical removing agent would work well or a higher grit paper would also work well.

Regards Peter.

Fair comment. I would describe this so far as "exploratory" - wanted to see what the grain looked like, how thick the paint was, how many joins there were.

Also I confess to being a bit mesmerised by how much the wood has moved - at some point in the build, straight off the planer/thicknesser, it was probably flat for all practical purposes, but it has sunk appreciably back and front, and on the neck too.

By wet sanding on a honing block I am at least discovering the flatness or lack of it. For what that's worth

To remove the remaining paint yes, it's either coarser dry paper, or chemicals, or both.

 

[LPTDMSV]

I'll probably leave it here for now. Mostly bare wood now. Got.some thinners on order.

 

[cmjohnson]

If you're wet sanding on bare wood, I just BET that the wood is moving around a bit! You're soaking the wood in water and that's going to make it swell up. It'll be WEEKS before it dries out enough that you can be sure that it won't keep moving after finishing. So...STOP what you're doing. No more water. Sand dry or use lacquer thinner.

Yes, I see evidence of sanding sealer. See around the edges of the sanded area where the finish is kind milky translucent but isn't yet to bare wood? That's the sanding sealer.

I get what you're doing. I don't care if other people agree with me or not, satin finishes SUCK. I'd sand that crap off, too, and prepare to put a PROPER finish on it. Full gloss, probably real nitro laquer on that. Take the time to remove every trace of the black that will show when the guitar is assembled, and if you do that, you can use any color you want. Don't take the time to chase it in the cracks, and you'll pretty much have to stick with black.

 

[LPTDMSV]

If you're wet sanding on bare wood, I just BET that the wood is moving around a bit! You're soaking the wood in water and that's going to make it swell up. It'll be WEEKS before it dries out enough that you can be sure that it won't keep moving after finishing. So...STOP what you're doing. No more water. Sand dry or use lacquer thinner.

Yes, I see evidence of sanding sealer. See around the edges of the sanded area where the finish is kind milky translucent but isn't yet to bare wood? That's the sanding sealer.

I get what you're doing. I don't care if other people agree with me or not, satin finishes SUCK. I'd sand that crap off, too, and prepare to put a PROPER finish on it. Full gloss, probably real nitro laquer on that. Take the time to remove every trace of the black that will show when the guitar is assembled, and if you do that, you can use any color you want. Don't take the time to chase it in the cracks, and you'll pretty much have to stick with black.

Thanks, yes I think you're right - I stopped with the wet sanding right after the first set of photographs, the more recent one was dry sanding only.

I'll be clear lacquering once I've got it into a reasonable condition, I'll be happy with a "semi-relic" look, I'm not going to be trying to make the guitar look new and I'm not taking the black paint off everywhere.

But yes, satin sucks IMO. I suspect the main reason Gibson (or anyone else) does satin or "worn brown" finishes because they are a *lot* less work than a good full gloss. It's a shame to cover the grain of a nice piece of mahogany with a cheesy finish. I note in Gibson's original promo material the "Satin Vintage" finish has a nice clear back and shaded neck, I'd guess they dropped that pretty quickly to cut costs.

 

[LPTDMSV]

Here's a couple of Gibson's orginal "glamour" shots of this model - note the totally different finish on the back (and sides, and neck) compared to my actual production 2012 guitar! I suspect that the "model" guitar for this photo-shoot was a pre-production item.

 

[LPTDMSV]

Whereas the top is pretty nicely done really, I think (?) they have used grain filler even if there is no clear top coat, it still buffed up quite well with some Micromesh

 

[pshupe]

I do not think satin finished are less Labour intensive. You still cannot get away with flaws or an uneven surface. I think it is just a different look appealing to different people.

I’ve done a couple tru-oil finishes where, I thought, I didn’t have to be as careful. I was mistaken. ;-)

As far as level sanding the body, I’m not surprised the body is a little un-even. It’s not a fret board. Normally you would sand out scratches and imperfections and not be that concerned about a completely level surface. Put a straight edge and feeler gauges on any guitar and I’ll bet you’ll find gaps that are not noticeable.

Regards Peter.

 

[LPTDMSV]

Thanks Peter -

It seems to me that "Satin" and "worn" finishes are mostly exclusive to the cheaper Gibsons, but Gibson's terminology is a little misleading, it's not a true satin/ matte which as you say is almost as much work as a gloss. In Gibson-speak "satin" means no grain filler and no sanding or buffing between coats. "Worn" means only one coat, or a very thin one. That surely saves time and money on the production line. With a Traditional Pro 2, for example, they pretty much had to do satin on the back otherwise there was no way to make it cheaper than a Standard.

You're right there is no real reason for the body to be flat better than +or - a millimetre, just my curiosity.

 

[LPTDMSV]

I do not think satin finished are less Labour intensive. You still cannot get away with flaws or an uneven surface. I think it is just a different look appealing to different people.

I’ve done a couple tru-oil finishes where, I thought, I didn’t have to be as careful. I was mistaken. ;-)

As far as level sanding the body, I’m not surprised the body is a little un-even. It’s not a fret board. Normally you would sand out scratches and imperfections and not be that concerned about a completely level surface. Put a straight edge and feeler gauges on any guitar and I’ll bet you’ll find gaps that are not noticeable.

Regards Peter.

p.s. I've been looking back over some of your build projects on this forum Peter, some of the photos have gone missing but I can still see there's some very nice looking guitars there and a lot of really interesting information - great work, and thanks for sharing.

I can easily imagine the oil finish challenges you had on that SG body . . the end result is pretty sensational though.

 

[LPTDMSV]

Three years later … I decided to carry on stripping the finish …

Messy! The paint has been touched up here and there with nail varnish or something similar, but it’s the original finish that least wants to come off.

 

[LtDave32]

First off, I hope you abandoned the aluminum plate as a sanding block for something more appropriate, such as a proper rubber block.

Stripping is always messy. You can reduce the spread of slop by doing it in a large plastic tub.

At this point where you've gone, I'm sure you realize you are in for a total strip to bare wood. Let's get you there, ready for the refin, and we'll start to worry about sealers, fillers and such from that point.

a bath (in that tub) with lacquer thinner is what I'd say is needed. You can buy a gallon at the home store, Wal-mart even. You don't need brand-proprietary thinner (that goes with your brand of lacquer) for this, you're just cleaning and stripping. Take it one panel at a time. When you get to the tricky parts, inside corners, etc you can use a stiff nylon-bristle brush and the thinner. Most of a gallon will do the trick. I've done this before. You need to wear thick rubber gloves, I recommend those "dishwasher" yellow gloves, they work perfect. You can still feel the work, but your fingers stay protected. Rags, brushes, patience and time. Don't be afraid to soak a panel or side with thinner for a few hours, replenishing it every half hour or so with the nasty rag and thinner. It takes some time to work down old, hardened lacquer. When the thinner gets too colored up and thick with lacquer, change it out. A pint or so in the tub is all you really need, at a time. It's kind of like giving a dog a bath. A partner to hold the guitar up while you wash and scrub is a plus. My wife does that for me. No, you can't use my wife. Lol..

Lacquer thinner will soften, but you still need to scrub to remove layers.

All in all, a day's worth, with frequent breaks and time-soaking should get you all the way there.

Try not to use putty knives or sharp objects to remove difficult material from nooks and crannies. you will be having more gouges and dents to fill.

 

[LPTDMSV]

Thanks Dave.

Ideally I would like to do a part-refin, back and sides of the body only …so far I have managed to avoid damaging the top and I am (overly?) optimistic that I can save it! The factory sunburst is nice. The factory finish on the neck also is much superior to that on the back and sides of the body, which has a fair bit of buckle rash and sundry scratches, etc., typical gig wear.

Yeah no more wet-sanding or honing blocks!

I’ve been wiping on lacquer thinner and it does usefully soften the paint but not to any great depth. I’ll have a think about whether I can get closer to the dog bath method without causing a domestic crisis!

One thing is for sure, and that’s a decent respirator is 100% necessary, even in very small amounts the thinner fumes are obnoxious.

 

[LtDave32]

Really, really hard to save a part of that from needing refinishing. Not something I would like to do, when I would have to spray color and clear anyway.

I’ve been wiping on lacquer thinner and it does usefully soften the paint but not to any great depth.

This takes time, and works in layers. But it does work.

Then again, so does sanding with 120 grit.

 

[LPTDMSV]

Les Paul Studio - stripping the back and sides...

It begins. More pics and details to come. I used this same stripper on an Epi. It did NOTHING to the Epi. Didn't even dull the finish. When I wiped it off, it looked like I had use Pledge. 10 minutes soaking on a Gib Studio... different story. nyusa

www.mylespaul.com

But Dave’s idea is better.

Thanks for sharing that one, so you succeeded! Similar situation though my guitar has binding which might (or might not) make it easier to mask off.

My intention is to do a clear finish, probably with a neutral grain filler. Mahogany is too nice to cover up.

I’ll try to update in less than three years time

 

[ArchEtech]

After you get that all removed, sand it all smooth, then stain it 2-3 times with a black stain and seal it with wax. Better than a paint black matte if you want to see a little grain and it won’t rub off or be a pain to maintain.

 

[LPTDMSV]

After you get that all removed, sand it all smooth, then stain it 2-3 times with a black stain and seal it with wax. Better than a paint black matte if you want to see a little grain and it won’t rub off or be a pain to maintain.

Thanks, It’s a thought, but I would like to try my hand at a clear gloss first.

 

[LPTDMSV]

Making a little progress, still a way to go though especially in the cutaway and sides generally: