Les Paul Copies: Are They Better Than Gibsons?

[OLD GUITAR PLAYER]

Absolutely.

Heritage is to Gibson as G&L is to Fender.

Possibly, even closer than that...

When Leo re-started with Musicman in 1975 (after his non-compete expired) he had to build a new facility, with all new tooling and equipment, in a different location, 10 years after he sold Fender to CBS. In 1975 Leo started creating all new designs for Musicman (like the Stingray series), and again in 1979 at G&L (like the F-100 series), where he also mirrored many of his most popular Fenders from his past.

In contrast, when Heritage started-up they immediately took over Gibson's original location, utilizing much of Gibson's original tooling, with Gibson's original guys, using pretty much Gibson's original materials, closely following the Gibson line. Of course, this is just my humble opinion.


Leo & I at G&L in 1979

 

[Super100JH]

can you explain why? I would really like to know.

I am a former Ranger, I will leave it at that.
I am conscious where I spend my money.
They don't innovate, they replicate as cheap as possible
Lots of ripoffs with poor quality. Rarely do you find quality.

I am open to quality and willing to pay for it

To each his own

 

[Super100JH]

Possibly, even closer than that...

When Leo re-started with Musicman in 1975 (after his non-compete expired) he had to build a new facility, with all new tooling and equipment, in a different location, 10 years after he sold Fender. in 1975 Leo started creating new designs for Musicman (like the Stingray series), and again in 1979 at G&L (like the F-100 series), where he also mirrored many of his most popular Fenders from his past.

In contrast, when Heritage started-up they immediately took over Gibson's original location, utilizing much of Gibson's original tooling, with Gibson's original guys, using pretty much Gibson's original materials, closely following the Gibson line. Of course, this is just my humble opinion.

View attachment 676223
Leo at G&L in 1979

Just bought my first Heritage a month ago. Really great guitar. I am tweaking it to make it my own

 

[Super100JH]

Heritage (not sure I’d call them a copy from a historical perspective) H150 standard and core’s look really nice. Haven’t had a chance to play one they look enticing.

Anyone have an opinion?

Nice guitar enjoy!

 

[MrBuster]

I am a former Ranger, I will leave it at that.
I am conscious where I spend my money.
They don't innovate, they replicate as cheap as possible
Lots of ripoffs with poor quality. Rarely do you find quality.

I am open to quality and willing to pay for it

To each his own

ok, thanks. It sounds like you've been burnt b4, perhaps more than once. That sucks. If I ran into that I may get a bad taste in my mouth also. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe thorough, but having name brand, or off brand, I've always gone for tone and feel. If I get that, it looks great too!

 

[kd5qoq]

I was referring to Chibsons lol

I was referring to my Epi.

 

[Barman]

I've had two Les Paul Standard (1991 and 2002), and a Pre-historic reissue 56 from 1989. On the other hand I've had about 4 Burnys (among them a 1981 RLG90 with nitro finish) and one Greco ( Super Real EGF850). The more expensive Japanese guitars were really great soundwise but had their issues such as flametop veneer delaminating on the EGF850, and weird white stains under the RLG90 nitro finish.
However, my current 2002 Gibson Standard is just the best Les paul I ever played. Its weight is under 4 kg, it rings like a bell and I love its burstbucker pickups. I wouldn't trade it for any copy.

 

[kd5qoq]

Gibson Les Paul tribute series can be had for around $2300, however I know nothing about them.

$1300 full retail.

 

[JPA67]

my only experience with Les Paul copies is with Ibanez and Epiphone. I've never had any time with an Orville, Burny, Greco, Aria et al. Mostly I'll say they can definitely be good players. But better? Better is subjective. However, I'll leave this anecdote.

In 1976, I bought an Ibanez Les Paul standard copy. I had that guitar for 13 years. In 1989, I traded it in towards a new Gibson Les Paul standard. I brought it home and plugged it in. Within 3 minutes, my mom hollered up the stairs "You bought a new guitar, didn't you?" My mom, god bless her, didn't know a hill full of beans from a guitar, yet she was able to tell the (massive) difference in how those two guitars sounded.

Yeah, I'm messing with an Epi studio... Not the same! Setting pickup height is a plus, for sure. Especially when running power, but... Not the Same!

 

[JPA67]

"Do you like my guitar? It's as good as a Gibson!" seems to me to be said more by people with low cost instruments who probably don't have a lot of experience with actual Gibson guitars.

I don't know that a lot of the people here who follow or collect Tokai, Bacchus, Burny, Navigator, Crews or the like would use that phrase.

YMMV, play what you like, etc. If you want something as good as a Gibson, get a Gibson. If you like inexpensive instruments that seem to punch above their weight, enjoy those for what they are, by all means.

PS I like Japanese guitars.

I knew someone, in the late 70's, had an Ibanez artist playing Zep covers. This was a serious instrument! Can't or wouldn't refer to it as a copy...

 

[OLD GUITAR PLAYER]

I knew someone, in the late 70's, had an Ibanez artist playing Zep covers. This was a serious instrument! Can't or wouldn't refer to it as a copy...

In the 1970's Ibanez introduced several unique designs (in addition to many "lawsuit" copies of well known instruments). Their Professional Artist series were (and still are) well crafted and popular. The only downside I can see (of owning a 1970's series Japanese made Ibanez) were the Super 70 pickups, which were simply not as good as Gibson PAFs, or Dimarzios and/or other USA wound options at that time (in my opinion). I owned 2 different limited edition Ibanez Professional Series back in the 1970's (I was the guitar teacher for an Ibanez retailer), and I upgraded the electronics on both of them pretty quickly. I gigged with both of those guitars until the late 1980's (over 10 years). They never felt inferior in any way, to me.

 

[edro]

This kinda copy is pretty badass..... Dean Zelinsky Guitars.... Cheaper overall than Gibs.... More versatile.... Piezo is killer and kinda boggles the mind.... Notice the neck back.

 

[Grenville]

... The only downside I can see (of owning a 1970's series Japanese made Ibanez) were the Super 70 pickups, which were simply not as good as Gibson PAFs, or Dimarzios and/or other USA wound options at that time (in my opinion).

In 1985 I was able to get hold of a 1976 'Golden Oldie' series Ibanez Destroyer (Explorer copy) that I'd wanted for years. Within days the Super 70s bridge pickup failed.

Knowing what I know now, it was likely a simple rewire and I could do it myself. At the time though, my thought was to replace, and I did that with a Seymour Duncan SH-4 JB.

I liked the JB well enough, but when I landed a similarly constructed 'Golden Oldie' series Ibanez Rocket Roll Sr flying V with the original Super 70s pickups, it definitely had the edge tonally.

Amps used at the time were Roland JC120 and Mesa MkIIC+.

Not PAF, for sure, but to my mind (and our crew) the Ibanez pickup was better than the Seymour Duncan, at least in a rock power trio with the amps I was using.

It was at that point I started wondering how much mass marketed products were being deliberately under-specced to create a sense of constant flux, ie constantly trying to find the magic 'better version' of something.

 

[Progrocker111]

My former 1980 Tokai LS80 Love Rock was at least as good as late 70s/early 80s Gibsons. In fact it was more resonant and more "traditionaly" sounding than the maple necked Gibsons from the same era. With changed electronics and pickups it could rival even Gibson Historics.

 

[OLD GUITAR PLAYER]

In 1985 I was able to get hold of a 1976 'Golden Oldie' series Ibanez Destroyer (Explorer copy) that I'd wanted for years. Within days the Super 70s bridge pickup failed.

Knowing what I know now, it was likely a simple rewire and I could do it myself. At the time though, my thought was to replace, and I did that with a Seymour Duncan SH-4 JB.

I liked the JB well enough, but when I landed a similarly constructed 'Golden Oldie' series Ibanez Rocket Roll Sr flying V with the original Super 70s pickups, it definitely had the edge tonally.

Amps used at the time were Roland JC120 and Mesa MkIIC+.

Not PAF, for sure, but to my mind (and our crew) the Ibanez pickup was better than the Seymour Duncan, at least in a rock power trio with the amps I was using.

It was at that point I started wondering how much mass marketed products were being deliberately under-specced to create a sense of constant flux, ie constantly trying to find the magic 'better version' of something.

I'd never even heard of Seymour Duncan's until the 1990's (shame on me, I guess). Back then I was upgrading to OEM Gibsons, EMGs or Dimarzio Super Distortions on pretty much everything because I like the sound. I primarily used a Mitchell "Pro 100" back then (a Kinder hand-wired Mesa Mk 1 clone), a deluxe, or a small Marshall. I seem to remember that by the 90's my Ibanez guitars (Sabers, 550s, JEMs) generally came with Dimarzios, as did my CS Yamaha Weddington. As a music shop repairman 1975-1990, I wasn't a big fan of most factory harnesses, especially on imports, or CBS "era" Fenders. At least Gibson always seemed to use high quality switches, wiring and pots, as did Jacksons, and Charvels (Wayne was a friend). BTW, I always upgrade the harnesses on my personal guitars, to this day. As to "brand names" sounding better, that's a personal choice. These days I like most of what Seymour Duncan puts out, as do many of my old Studio Buddies (the few who are still around). I also like Laces and gen 1 noiseless Fender single coils, but there are many folks who consider them an abomination. Que Sara.

 

[Grenville]

I don't think Seymours are an abomination, but I am intrigued that there are commercial versions of their pickups as well as "custom shop MJ versions" that are, apparently, a step up or a step closer to that platonic ideal.

As you're getting at, it takes all sorts and there are many choices!

BTW, I've replaced the harnesses in almost all the guitars I've had too.

 

[OLD GUITAR PLAYER]

I don't think Seymours are an abomination, but I am intrigued that there are commercial versions of their pickups as well as "custom versions" that are, apparently, a step up or a step closer to that platonic ideal.

As you're getting at, it takes all sorts and there are many choices!

BTW, I've replaced the harnesses in almost all the guitars I've had too.

The deal is, those "commercial" versions are only "licensed by Seymour Duncan" and are actually built in Chinese/Indonesian factories. G&L and PRS do the same thing with some of their pickups. I've seen some OK ones, but mostly disappointing ones. They are NOT Seymour Duncan USA pickups! The Real USA Seymour Duncan pickups are hand-crafted near Santa Barbara, in California. They can also hand-wind individual pickups to spec. for custom orders, if you have a lot of cash $$$$.

 

[Grenville]

I'm pretty sure the SD pickup I bought from the display cabinet in a retail store in 1985 for $150 or so was made in the USA. Definitely not Chinese or Indonesian.

That's what I mean by 'commercial versions', the ones dealers have in stock for you to buy over the counter and put in your guitars.

The "licensed by" SD pickups did appear a few years later as OEM in inexpensive guitars, but as far as I know were not available as a standalone new purchase option.

I thought at the time that they'd know the recipe to make anything they'd want to, why is this not terrible but not stunningly good? Then they opened their handwound custom order options and I figured out why.

 

[OLD GUITAR PLAYER]

I'm pretty sure the SD pickup I bought from the display cabinet in a retail store in 1985 for $150 or so was made in the USA. Definitely not Chinese or Indonesian.

That's what I mean by 'commercial versions', the ones dealers have in stock for you to buy over the counter and put in your guitars.

The "licensed by" SD pickups did appear a few years later as OEM in inexpensive guitars, but as far as I know were not available as a standalone new purchase option.

I thought at the time that they'd know the recipe to make anything they'd want to, why is this not terrible but not stunningly good? Then they opened their handwound custom order options and I figured out why.

Yes, I'm pretty sure your SD was real in 1985. Now I understand what you mean by "commercial". Yes, and I'm pretty sure their overseas "versions" were clearly stamped "licensed by" and/or more recently "Duncan Designed".

But, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at? Aren't Seymour Duncan custom handwound pickups hand-crafted with lots of TLC, much like a Custom Shop guitar? From what I understand, their "commercial" USA made pickups are still pretty much hand-assembled in a small assembly line, not cranked out "thousands at a time" on some automated piece of equipment overseas. Plus, USA versions are usually constructed with better quality raw materials, and components.

Are you unhappy with the consistency / quality of Seymour's "commercial" USA pickups these days? Or, are you saying they should be better than they are, after all of these years? Or, that their "overseas versions" should be better quality? Just curious what the complaint is?

Ref: I currently have their "commercial" USA Hot-Rod set (SH2 & SH4) on my D'Angelico, and their "commercial" USA Quarter Pounder on my P-Bass. To me, they are GREAT SOUNDING pickups.

 

[DeafDumbBlind Kid]

I guess that was due to the style of the music you were interested in playing?

--R

It was what I thought I had to do to sound like the style of music I was interested in, but I was very incorrect in that assumption.