Lawyers representing coal mines threaten science journals to stop release of findings

[bertzie]

My shrink used to say so. He doesn't say much of anything these days.

 

[exPFCWintergreen]

Originally Posted by KSG_Standard
I was thinking about people like you and exPFC...I think it's sad that you'll be stuck on stupid for the rest of your life.

And I think it's sad you'll have a rest of your life.

But you can't always get what you want.

I wish had some psych training so I could comprehend how the minds of of people like KSG work. I'm serious, I'd like to know how they got to where they are. I'm not talking about the stupid, although they are also represented heavily here at MLP. It's the ones with obvious intelligence that concern me. They are so divorced from reality, unable to apply logic to the issues, so full of anger and even hatred, so relentless in their pursuit of the absurd, that I sometimes wonder if they aren't exhibiting sociopathic tendencies. It's sad to see but also actually frightening to a rational person.

 

[KSG_Standard]

I wish you had some psych training too...as well as some economics, history, logic and some basic training in civics.

 

[vintageJIM]

when I was a kid growing up in the 1960s I knew there was a lot wrong in my nation; segregation, Vietnam, assassinations, etc.

I didn't need someone, somebody, anyone, anybody, etc. to tell me these things were wrong, and that my nation was experiencing it's own cup full-O-BS.
Some things are just intuitive; period ..................

well, I was right & things continue to go down hill, just as I surmised they would .............

welcome to power, influence, political corruption, money talks, the same ole, etc.

nothing ever changes, huh?

the more things change, the more they stay the same .................

anyone think the generations of the future will save US from the generations of our past?
LOL ..............

do I give a s***? do I care? no ....... ..........

 

[KSG_Standard]

There's more to it than people being stupid. The law plays second fiddle to politics in our era of government by big business. It takes more than logic and precedent to prevail against big money interests (see Citizens United, Bush v. Gore). It takes an intricate, long-term public relations campaign based on logic and precedent. This study is part of it.

Not if the premise had anything to do with the Surpeme Court's fascist majority.

Fascism: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty
define fascism - Bing DICTIONARY
Fascism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

http://www.fec.gov/law/litigation/cu_sc08_opinion.pdf
Bush v. Gore - 531 U.S. 98 (2000) :: Justia US Supreme Court Center

Please explain, in light of the facts, legal definitions and history...how the Robert's court is fascist...How the Robert's court majority are "wingnuts" and if you will, expound a little bit on which party exhibits more fascist tendencies. Thanks!

 

[bertzie]

I wish you had some psych training too...as well as some economics, history, logic and some basic training in civics.

I wish your economics weren't from the pre-depression era.

 

[KSG_Standard]

I wish your economics weren't from the pre-depression era.

What sort of economics education did you get in the basement?

 

[vintageJIM]

Fascism: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty

I have been telling people for about 35 years (I am 51 now) that America is a Fascist state & that link backs up my decades old claim ...........


enjoy

 

[bertzie]

What sort of economics education did you get in the basement?

The kind you get from working class people. No one out here got rich. They work hard and if they're lucky have something to pass on to their kids when they die.

 

[nauc]

image that.... companies making tons of money, while fvcking people left and right

people get what they tolerate

 

[CenCalPlayer]

This isn't about lawyers, this is about people in unacceptable working conditions. Unfortunately no industry or government is going to accept the word of Fred's Garage, they need an in-depth study for the correct H&S regulations to be made and implemented so that the risks on peoples lives can be minimised. Don't equate it to the tobacco industry, equate it to the use of asbestos.

Of course the workers is what this about. But if you think waiting twenty years for a bureaucrat to study something that is common sense is the way to go, then I'll lay odds you don't have family in one of those mines. Twenty years while those people are down in those holes sucking fumes?! Anyone who knows anything about the ICE could tell you all you need to know about why you don't want to run an engine in a closed in space without a ton of ventilation in twenty minutes (try reading the owners manual to anything that has an ICE, like your car). While DC is busy wasting Fng time and tax dollars "studying" that which has already been studied and known, people are getting sick off the effects....sure that correct H&S BS that took twenty years to figure out will be of great comfort to the widows and kids of those workers....Geesh!! Someone tell me there is even an once of common friggin sense left in this country....you want to get something like this fixed, go ask the workers and foremen to work together and come up with solutions, they'll have it fixed in no time because their butts are on the line, guarantee it won't take them twenty years.

 

[geochem1st]

Of course the workers is what this about. But if you think waiting twenty years for a bureaucrat to study something that is common sense is the way to go, then I'll lay odds you don't have family in one of those mines. Twenty years while those people are down in those holes sucking fumes?! Anyone who knows anything about the ICE could tell you all you need to know about why you don't want to run an engine in a closed in space without a ton of ventilation in twenty minutes (try reading the owners manual to anything that has an ICE, like your car). While DC is busy wasting Fng time and tax dollars "studying" that which has already been studied and known, people are getting sick off the effects....sure that correct H&S BS that took twenty years to figure out will be of great comfort to the widows and kids of those workers....Geesh!! Someone tell me there is even an once of common friggin sense left in this country....you want to get something like this fixed, go ask the workers and foremen to work together and come up with solutions, they'll have it fixed in no time because their butts are on the line, guarantee it won't take them twenty years.

Your asking for common sense among the mine owners. It is in their hands how mines are operated. This is the same industry that not very long ago, used women and kids (miners family members) to fit in the small spaces down below. They expect human tragedy, it's part of the equation for them.

They have a very strong, well coined lobby that has a great deal of influence, which allows them to literally get away with murder. Laws just do not get passed on common sense alone. Because of the state of litigation today, you need a mountain of evidence to be weighed in on your side to have a piece of legislation passed.

The cancer study took 20 years because thats how long you have to follow people to establish a hard link on whether or not a variable causes cancer or not. These are tricky studies that will be pulled apart by opposing, well paid, very talented lawyers.

Coal miners butts have always been on the line. It's one of the most hazardous jobs in existence, even when the mines are cooperating.

 

[Gooner]

Of course the workers is what this about. But if you think waiting twenty years for a bureaucrat to study something that is common sense is the way to go, then I'll lay odds you don't have family in one of those mines. Twenty years while those people are down in those holes sucking fumes?! Anyone who knows anything about the ICE could tell you all you need to know about why you don't want to run an engine in a closed in space without a ton of ventilation in twenty minutes (try reading the owners manual to anything that has an ICE, like your car). While DC is busy wasting Fng time and tax dollars "studying" that which has already been studied and known, people are getting sick off the effects....sure that correct H&S BS that took twenty years to figure out will be of great comfort to the widows and kids of those workers....Geesh!! Someone tell me there is even an once of common friggin sense left in this country....you want to get something like this fixed, go ask the workers and foremen to work together and come up with solutions, they'll have it fixed in no time because their butts are on the line, guarantee it won't take them twenty years.

If it's so simple why are people still working in these conditions? Cancer studies take time, without the findings no company will comply with resolving the issue. I work in an environment where exhaust fumes are quite prevalent in the atmosphere, and have been trying very hard to get our employers and HSE to monitor it properly for years.

 

[Caleb]

I really feel for coal miners in this country. On one hand, it's about the only decent paying job that they can get. On the other hand, they know that they are complicit in the destruction of the environment that allowed their forefathers to get by. It's a tough choice when one is actually living it. I do not envy their predicament.

 

[CenCalPlayer]

Your asking for common sense among the mine owners. It is in their hands how mines are operated. This is the same industry that not very long ago, used women and kids (miners family members) to fit in the small spaces down below. They expect human tragedy, it's part of the equation for them.

They have a very strong, well coined lobby that has a great deal of influence, which allows them to literally get away with murder. Laws just do not get passed on common sense alone. Because of the state of litigation today, you need a mountain of evidence to be weighed in on your side to have a piece of legislation passed.

The cancer study took 20 years because thats how long you have to follow people to establish a hard link on whether or not a variable causes cancer or not. These are tricky studies that will be pulled apart by opposing, well paid, very talented lawyers.

Coal miners butts have always been on the line. It's one of the most hazardous jobs in existence, even when the mines are cooperating.

Geo you know I'm a capitalist through and through, however the effects of the ICE in enclosed spaces without proper ventilation doesn't need to be studied for twenty years at this juncture in history as that was done seventy years ago. There are laws already on the books about not running ICE's without proper ventilation. There is making a dollar and then there is common sense and common decency, those are not mutually exclusive. I'm certainly no expert in mining, and I understand it is a very dangerous job, but no one is going to tell me there isn't a viable solution to the problem in this day and age and it certainly doesn't need to take twenty years to see a problem and get it fixed. This is the kind of shit that really pisses me off as it certainly appears to be senselessly putting fellow countrymen at additional risk when I'ill bet money there is an economical alternative to use in those mines. Now does our government often go way overboard with regulations, boards, oversight committees, that kill business and jobs, You bet it does, that's why I said let the workers and foremen work together to come up with the solutions as they will do it in short order, and economically, because their butts and livelihoods are on the line. Those journals should tell the lawyers to STUFF IT. Nothing is going to change until we collectively quit cowering to the damn lawyers.

 

[CenCalPlayer]

If it's so simple why are people still working in these conditions? Cancer studies take time, without the findings no company will comply with resolving the issue. I work in an environment where exhaust fumes are quite prevalent in the atmosphere, and have been trying very hard to get our employers and HSE to monitor it properly for years.

I see you are from the UK, so I really can't comment on how things are in your country. But in the US we have a lot of laws already on the books about using ICE's with proper ventilation, etc. I don't give a crap about the cancer study as that is secondary to the KNOWN issues with ICE's in enclosed spaces, i.e. the exhaust WILL kill you. I don't need another study to understand what common sense tells me and that is an ICE in a mine miles under the ground, where there isn't a lot of ventilation, probably isn't the brightest idea under the sun. Could go on and on about how this makes zero sense but that is going to take us into the realm of what the hell are the unions doing, shit like this is why unions originally came into existence (worker protection), Why isn't the government enforcing the laws we already have, and any other number of avenues of discussion on the subject but that isn't the scope of my original post. The studies on why you don't want the exhaust from an ICE in enclosed spaces was done 70-80 years ago, don't need another one to tell me it causes cancer or anything else, I already know that ICE's in a mine are going to be bad mojo.....so use something different that isn't going to make a dangerous job even more so IMO.

 

[SteveGangi]

we need coal, how else are we going to power those electric cars

That is actually and ironically true. But, mines should have adequate ventilation so the workers don't have to die early for the rest of us to have our little toy cars.

I see it this way... if some supergenius scientist "suddenly discovers" that engine exhaust is bad (fvcking DUH!), then companies have to spend money on safety, ventilation, and stuff. That cuts into their profits and bonuses and golden handshakes and stock options.

That is what it's about, it's the money.

 

[exPFCWintergreen]

originally posted by coldsteal2
we need coal, how else are we going to power those electric cars

Not to worry. The fix is in for the slurry pipeline, which will carry the results of the strip mining of western Canada down across the states to Texas. There the slurry will be refined into fuels to be exported to China at a handsome profit! Everyone's a winner! Oil companies, coal companies, pipeline companies, refinery owners, politicians on the take -- everyone!

 

[CenCalPlayer]

That is actually and ironically true. But, mines should have adequate ventilation so the workers don't have to die early for the rest of us to have our little toy cars.

I see it this way... if some supergenius scientist "suddenly discovers" that engine exhaust is bad (fvcking DUH!), then companies have to spend money on safety, ventilation, and stuff. That cuts into their profits and bonuses and golden handshakes and stock options.

That is what it's about, it's the money.

Right on the money Steve.

 

[KSG_Standard]

Slurry and strip mining from Canada to Texas.

Puff, puff, pass.