Latest ‘53/‘59 Conversion Surprise Uber Flame!

[TrackerDan]

I do not know how much he paid; but the gold top looked great? Does a 53 have to have the neck reset like they started doing in 1954?

 

[Barnaby]

Who would be stupid enough to pay that much when a '53 all original, bar a refinish to the goldtop can be bought for around GBP8k?

Really? If you have one for that price, I'll buy it!

 

[bosnialove]

Im neitral to this discussion, however it would be fukin cool to see that thing with with a floyd rose..

On the other side: if things like this keep being done, the prices of the original amd untouched ones will become even higher. Haha

 

[asteksonus]

Pure vandalism. If you want to do this kind of thing - make a new burst if you’ve got the skills – at least you create something. Using paint-stripper, a router and post drill are really low-grade - but they result in irreversible changes to a beautiful vintage guitar which is lost forever.

 

[dearborndave]

I don't think the top is quite as nice as the owner thinks it is. Hell, it's three pieces with the main seam off center, that kills it for me. If it were mine (which it isn't) I'd go with the original plan of restoring a beautiful gold top with the original P-90's and the wrap around tailpiece. To me,the guitar would ALWAYS be worth more restored to stock instead of being cut up (i.e. re-routed for humbuckers) to make it into a half ass "Burst"

 

[dearborndave]

3 piece top, off center, off axis seam, and the flame is nothing to write home about.

No, I don't think you're doing the right thing, either. It'd have been much cooler to just try to source original vintage parts and make it what it was than try to make it just another 59 conversion that'll NEVER be right.

You, sir, are a HACK. Thumbs DOWN to you. Please distance yourself from all vintage guitars FOR LIFE. They do not deserve the sad fate they are likely to suffer if you should get your claws on them.

And I do not care what your history is, or your reputation, or the quality of your past work. The fact is that you are destroying a rare original that will now become MORE rare and turning it into an unconvincing conversion to something it was never made as or meant to be, that will impress only newbies and people who lack refined vintage guitar tastes.

Well said, my thoughts exactly!

 

[VictorB]

I don't think the top is quite as nice as the owner thinks it is. Hell, it's three pieces with the main seam off center, that kills it for me. If it were mine (which it isn't) I'd go with the original plan of restoring a beautiful gold top with the original P-90's and the wrap around tailpiece. To me,the guitar would ALWAYS be worth more restored to stock instead of being cut up (i.e. re-routed for humbuckers) to make it into a half ass "Burst"

Good thing you’re not the one paying for the work.

 

[dearborndave]

Good thing you’re not the one paying for the work.

Like I said "if it were mine (which it isn't)" The owner is free to do whatever him/her wants to do with it, but last time I checked, everyone is allowed to have his/hers opinion, and I was just voicing mine. Are opinions not allowed on this forum? I mean I didn't call anyone a name or insult anyone, I hope I didn't do anything wrong!

 

[jeggz]

There is no way a refin, P90 wraptail Goldtop is gonna go for more money than a refin, correctly humbuckered and Abr’d Goldtop, Burst or whatever, not in 2020.

 

[Rigidarm]

Like I said "if it were mine (which it isn't)" The owner is free to do whatever him/her wants to do with it, but last time I checked, everyone is allowed to have his/hers opinion, and I was just voicing mine. Are opinions not allowed on this forum? I mean I didn't call anyone a name or insult anyone, I hope I didn't do anything wrong!

No PC in statements of honest opinion for some. I have a1968 GT that is in rough condition because it sounds so damned good it got the hell played out of it. Wouldn’t change it. Love it as is. P-90’s are something... gave me the sound I always wanted. For those unfamiliar you might YouTube up the late great Sean Costello. Just my 2 cents.

 

[cmjohnson]

The Japanese have a cultural tradition regarding the care of the swords made for the Samurai. The sword can outlast many people's lifetimes, and in fact there are some Japanese blades still in good condition that are a thousand years old, and even though many were destroyed under orders at the end of WWII, blades in beautiful condition and made in the 1500s, 1600s, and 1700s are not uncommon. Since the sword can outlast the owner, the attitude is that you are not the true owner, you are only the custodian of this work of high art and fine craftsmanship, and it is your obligation, if you are to have it, to keep it well maintained and in the best condition possible.

I have generally the same attitude toward musical instruments. They can outlast you. They can be passed down to future generations. There isn't any reason why a guitar might not last 400 years or so, or longer, given that there are violins made in the early 1700s that are still being used by working musicians, and any electric guitar can be expected to be more durable than any violin. (The same could be said for many acoustic guitars.) There may be no amplifiers left to plug into in four hundred years, but that Les Paul may still exist then.

Think of yourself as the custodian of an instrument that may be appreciated in generations you'll not live long enough to see born. Don't hack it up and try to make it what it was not intended to be.

 

[Rigidarm]

The Japanese have a cultural tradition regarding the care of the swords made for the Samurai. The sword can outlast many people's lifetimes, and in fact there are some Japanese blades still in good condition that are a thousand years old, and even though many were destroyed under orders at the end of WWII, blades in beautiful condition and made in the 1500s, 1600s, and 1700s are not uncommon. Since the sword can outlast the owner, the attitude is that you are not the true owner, you are only the custodian of this work of high art and fine craftsmanship, and it is your obligation, if you are to have it, to keep it well maintained and in the best condition possible.

I have generally the same attitude toward musical instruments. They can outlast you. They can be passed down to future generations. There isn't any reason why a guitar might not last 400 years or so, or longer, given that there are violins made in the early 1700s that are still being used by working musicians, and any electric guitar can be expected to be more durable than any violin. (The same could be said for many acoustic guitars.) There may be no amplifiers left to plug into in four hundred years, but that Les Paul may still exist then.

Think of yourself as the custodian of an instrument that may be appreciated in generations you'll not live long enough to see born. Don't hack it up and try to make it what it was not intended to be.

Well said. I am just the temporary caretaker for my items and property but I’ll enjoy the hell out of them while I’m here. It’s an imaginary trip to think of what will happen to these treasures in a hundred years let alone 4 or 5 hundred years. I like to think that they will be appreciated as much while their stay with me.

 

[asteksonus]

What you do to these guitars is criminal.

There is no way a refin, P90 wraptail Goldtop is gonna go for more money than a refin, correctly humbuckered and Abr’d Goldtop, Burst or whatever, not in 2020.

I get it – everyone here knows that a 1959 Burst is a highly desirable instrument, but this is not one of those. However, investment buyers should beware that the value is only what the market thinks they are worth. The only intrinsic value of any guitar is what it sounds like and what it plays like and in my view Les Pauls from 1953 to 1955 are the best – and it has nothing to do with the colour of the top. You don’t have to take my word for it - listen to the recordings of some great players and make up your own minds: early Freddy King, Mike Bloomfield – pre burst years, Jeff Beck on tracks where he is using a LP (Blow by Blows She’s a Woman – some tracks on Stevie Wonder’s Talking Book). Some players not typically associated with LPs but who like that raunchy single coil sound such as on Dave Gilmore on Dark Side of the moon, Richard Thomson… they all have good ears and good taste. Maybe the buying public will come to the same conclusion. Btw if this “restorer” wants to know how much I will pay to stop him going further along his path of destruction he only has to PM me.

 

[jimmyjames]

If anyone is really upset with this, exercise your involvement in the free market. Either buy such a guitar when it is on the market (ie outbid him) or offer him the amount he would want to let it go to you. In other words, put up or shut up.

 

[jeggz]

I get it – everyone here knows that a 1959 Burst is a highly desirable instrument, but this is not one of those. However, investment buyers should beware that the value is only what the market thinks they are worth. The only intrinsic value of any guitar is what it sounds like and what it plays like and in my view Les Pauls from 1953 to 1955 are the best – and it has nothing to do with the colour of the top. You don’t have to take my word for it - listen to the recordings of some great players and make up your own minds: early Freddy King, Mike Bloomfield – pre burst years, Jeff Beck on tracks where he is using a LP (Blow by Blows She’s a Woman – some tracks on Stevie Wonder’s Talking Book). Some players not typically associated with LPs but who like that raunchy single coil sound such as on Dave Gilmore on Dark Side of the moon, Richard Thomson… they all have good ears and good taste. Maybe the buying public will come to the same conclusion. Btw if this “restorer” wants to know how much I will pay to stop him going further along his path of destruction he only has to PM me.

But that’s just it, the $$$$$ he’ll get after he converts it, is a number you probably wouldn’t give him to just “restore it”. A refin humbucker/abr conversation guitar is easier to sell and more profitable.

That the long and the short of it.

I love P90 Wraptail Standards, I’ve owned 2, still own 1, but when it’s time to sell, it ain’t gonna fly off the shelves like my conversion would.
It’s a niche within a niche.

 

[asteksonus]

But that’s just it, the $$$$$ he’ll get after he converts it, is a number you probably wouldn’t give him to just “restore it”. A refin humbucker/abr conversation guitar is easier to sell and more profitable.

That the long and the short of it.

I love P90 Wraptail Standards, I’ve owned 2, still own 1, but when it’s time to sell, it ain’t gonna fly off the shelves like my conversion would.
It’s a niche within a niche.

It's true -

As others have mentioned in this thread - all of us in this niche who appreciate these wraptails had better put up and buy them up before the converters get their hands on them. - otherwise there won't be any left. Fortunatly most of the reputable dealers I know won't sell them on if they know that's what they are destined for.

The big issue I see is this growing cottage industry for turning distressed instruments into fakes by people who have become 'experts' by looking at a few YouTube videos.

There is a clear line between restoration and fakery. If an instrument is beyond restoration - maybe there is a justification to get a few $$ with a careful restoration but with a sensitive view to what can be reversed or not. All restorers in the 'Luthier' category do this.

If not done right the $$ are short term gains. The long picture is that these Wraptails will become increasingly valuable not only because they superior instrumernts but because more and more are being jumped on by hacks and ruined for good.

Sad fact

 

[jeggz]

But the OP is not a hack.

Inbox him, ask him for a price for the guitar correctly refinished, with all the fake parts.

Maybe you’ll get lucky, and then you can piece by piece put it back to stock with vintage stuff.

 

[jb_abides]

As others have mentioned in this thread - all of us in this niche who appreciate these wraptails had better put up and buy them up before the converters get their hands on them. - otherwise there won't be any left. Fortunatly most of the reputable dealers I know won't sell them on if they know that's what they are destined for.

I have a feeling everyone may get their chance sooner that we realize. The major economic shift will shake the trees pretty hard and present "bargains" for those with liquidity to spare.

If you think they are worth it.. or more appropriately put, can afford to put your money there as a steward or trustee, with little care for expected ROI, but because you LOVE the object, tool as art.

Demographics will be a MFer here for some time, perhaps past the end of our lifetimes, until there's a phoenix-like re-discovery and re-appreciation.

It will come: I am an optimist here.

It's hard to romance today's music software that much. Sure boomboxes and Linn drum machines have found a market, but those don't endure like wood and steel.

 

[eric ernest]

The Japanese have a cultural tradition regarding the care of the swords made for the Samurai.

Since the sword can outlast the owner, the attitude is that you are not the true owner, you are only the custodian of this work of high art and fine craftsmanship, and it is your obligation, if you are to have it, to keep it well maintained and in the best condition possible.

I have generally the same attitude toward musical instruments. They can outlast you. They can be passed down to future generations. There isn't any reason why a guitar might not last 400 years or so, or longer, given that there are violins made in the early 1700s that are still being used by working musicians, and any electric guitar can be expected to be more durable than any violin.

Think of yourself as the custodian of an instrument that may be appreciated in generations you'll not live long enough to see born. Don't hack it up and try to make it what it was not intended to be.

So now that's the "standard?" Samurai swords? Really?

Funny you mention "Violins" STILL being used by "musicians."

Now, you realize that virtually EVERY Stradivarius violin has been re-necked to accommodate modern pitch, right?

Based on your own reasoning, you are wrong.

Just a glance at your "gear list" and there is not one single vintage piece in your collection. So what are you being a caretaker of? Fractal Audio Axe-FX II? Hartke GH412A and GH412B cabinets?

For someone someone passionate enough to pontificate on vintage guitars, you sure aren't living it.

 

[VictorB]

This thread is about the guitar in the OP.

It is not for debate or opinions on conversions.

I will delete any future posts that aren’t on topic and ban the member from this thread.