Jupiter Capacitor - Les Paul Junior

lawrev

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Hi All,

This is the wiring and capacitor inside the 1986 Les Paul Junior I just purchased. It has a Lollar P-90 installed, so I'm curious whether the wiring is non - stock too. Never heard of Jupiter. Thoughts? Thanks!

LP Jr Wiring.jpg
 

DarrellV

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I didn't know caps had this quality or that it would be desirable in a signal circuit! :eek2:

Should be great for overdrive crunch! :jam:

'They posess a clarity, musicality, & sweet, round high end that rivals the blue “molded” cap’s tone. Not to mention a smooth, creamy breakup quality missing from many modern signal capacitors.”

Mike Pascale – Vintage Fender Amp Repair
 

lawrev

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From the website it seems like they build for amps, not guitars. But I guess it doesn't matter?

A closer look at the cap in mine shows this:

02uf​
600VDC​
.34 x 1​
$5.95​
 

Pappy35

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This is a great demo that puts to bed the confirmation bias we all seem to have about "vintage" caps. Other than trying to preserve the value of an antique instrument (a real '59 LP with a 25 cent disc cap in it would be sacrilege), there's zero reason to spend $30 a piece (or more) because it affects "tone" in any way.

Mojo? Yes.
Tone? No.

Cap comparison
 

lawrev

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This is a great demo that puts to bed the confirmation bias we all seem to have about "vintage" caps. Other than trying to preserve the value of an antique instrument (a real '59 LP with a 25 cent disc cap in it would be sacrilege), there's zero reason to spend $30 a piece (or more) because it affects "tone" in any way.

Mojo? Yes.
Tone? No.

Cap comparison
Great demo!
 

MATTM

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This is a great demo that puts to bed the confirmation bias we all seem to have about "vintage" caps. Other than trying to preserve the value of an antique instrument (a real '59 LP with a 25 cent disc cap in it would be sacrilege), there's zero reason to spend $30 a piece (or more) because it affects "tone" in any way.

Mojo? Yes.
Tone? No.

Cap comparison
I understand that rationale, but have YOU personally done a comparison between a modern (inexpensive) cap and a vintage cap in one of your own guitars?
 

Pappy35

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I understand that rationale, but have YOU personally done a comparison between a modern (inexpensive) cap and a vintage cap in one of your own guitars?
Nope. But I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express once. That and I'm an engineer and believe in data not subjective opinion. I'll ask you the same question: Have you tested various caps in a way that you didn't know which was was in there? Confirmation bias is in human response is a real thing. That's why I liked the video, you couldn't tell which one was "supposed" to sound better and so, surprise, they all sounded the same. I suppose it's also possible that the guy was lying about the setup and they all were the same cap but, that kinda sounds like a conspiracy-thinker's mind at work so I choose to believe his setup was real.

There are a number of videos one can view and there's another site, I'll try to find it, where someone did an electrical analysis (you know, plots and graphs, that pesky empirical data thing again) that clearly showed the was no change in the electrical behavior of various caps.
 

MATTM

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Yes, I have done the comparison. Many times over. Not everyone hears the difference enough to sway them one way or another, and thats perfectly okay.

That said, I don't think blanket statements based on someone else's experiences helps anyone.
 

Pappy35

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Yes, I have done the comparison. Many times over.
OK. Can you explain then what's different about them? I'm not trying to be another snarky internet expert, you obviously have a ton of experience and I like to learn about technical things. I'm asking seriously.
 
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MATTM

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No worries in the least. I'm happy to share my experiences.

The best "real world" parallel I can use to describe the difference (what I hear), is like playing through a new speaker versus one that has "broken-in" naturally over time. I find the tone more natural and relaxed; not so perfectly "sterile" if that makes any sense.

And of course, couple all this with the variables of the guitar itself, the pickups, wiring , amp etc. It ALL plays a part.

Tone is soooooooo unbelievably subjective. I respect the science and engineering behind all this, but I'm also a firm believer that sometimes what we actually hear defy's what science says we should.
 

ARandall

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This is a great demo that puts to bed the confirmation bias we all seem to have about "vintage" caps. Other than trying to preserve the value of an antique instrument (a real '59 LP with a 25 cent disc cap in it would be sacrilege), there's zero reason to spend $30 a piece (or more) because it affects "tone" in any way.

Mojo? Yes.
Tone? No.

Cap comparison
This is the sort of test you do when you're an engineer/scientist and trying to conclude there absolutely nothing there, rather than being objective about it.
Any scientist worth their salt would have done a test with easily identifiable/quantifiable results. Not putting about 4 degrees of poor quality filter in front of them.
So the correct test for this sort of thing is to play a known set of inputs and charting it on an oscilloscope. Not playing it and then posting it on the biggest compressive/tone altering medium known - youtube.
Then add into that the fact the most consumers will either play it through the typical crappy computer monitors or phone speakers.
But then again they're probably banking on that.

There have been tests done on caps using an oscilloscope of course, and they do indicate slight differences in the responses of cap types of the same nominal value. These are all in the upper frequencies......the typical areas where we hear speech and sibilant sounds. But the differences are so slight that they might or might not fall into the range of discernible difference.
And as much as you can argue that you hear what you want to hear, the flipside exists.....there are actual differences that you can hear only when you actually know what to listen for.
 

Pappy35

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This is the sort of test you do when you're an engineer/scientist and trying to conclude there absolutely nothing there, rather than being objective about it.
Same audio recording/filtering/playback system (i.e. Youtube through my headphones) and I can hear absolutely no practical difference between any of those caps.

Any scientist worth their salt would have done a test with easily identifiable/quantifiable results. Not putting about 4 degrees of poor quality filter in front of them.
Clearly this is not a scientifically rigorous, peer-reviewed, comparative analysis of the electrical behavior of one cap vs. another. A signal generator through the cap into an O-scope would would be the way to go. But then again, there aren't too many that can interpret that kind of data.

There have been tests done on caps using an oscilloscope of course, and they do indicate slight differences in the responses of cap types of the same nominal value. <snip> And as much as you can argue that you hear what you want to hear, the flipside exists.....there are actual differences that you can hear only when you actually know what to listen for.
True. I'm sure there are actual, quantifiable, differences in the electrical response of each brand/vintage cap if measured in a laboratory environment with suitable equipment. The point I'm making is that when the signal path starts at a vibrating steel string and ends in a human ear after passing though a pickup -> cord -> low-fidelity amplifier, those differences would be imperceptible to the average player and thus the 10x or greater cost would not be justified just for the "tone."

Now, if you're playing a quarter million dollar vintage instrument that blows a pot (or a cap or whatever), yeah, finding an authentic component and paying top-dollar for it makes perfect sense.
 

ARandall

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^ This last bit is elitist nonsense.

If you are the most humble home player and find a cap to have made that last bit of difference in making you happy playing only for your own ears, then it also makes perfect sense.
 

Pappy35

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Elitist? Really? Well, that's certainly not my intent and I apologize if that's how it reads to you. I'm such a terrible player (as compared to most) I would never accept that moniker. "Pragmatist", that would fit me nicely.

I bought NOS Russian PIO caps for my recent Epiphone upgrade project. I thought they looked cooler than Orange Drops and were only 2x the price at about $4 each. :laugh2:
 
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ARandall

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Elitist? Really? Well, that's certainly not my intent and I apologize if that's how it reads to you. I'm such a terrible player (as compared to most) I would never accept that moniker. "Pragmatist", that would fit me nicely.

I bought NOS Russian PIO caps for my recent Epiphone upgrade project. I thought they looked cooler than Orange Drops and were only 2x the price. :laugh2:
Look, I'm sorry if I came back hard here, but a lot of times we have to separate out opinion and estimation of 'value to the individual' from objective fact and scientific process.
That link you provided is by a guy who is qualified to comment on electrical aspects, and who is involved with guitars and what matters in the signal chain. But as a test I don't think he could have done more to muddy the waters....and it seems more like something you'd do to try and facilitate a 'quick dismissal' (veiled in a veneer of scientific process to make it look kosher), rather than really getting into the nitty gritty and engaging with the science.....which he could easily do.

For the most part I agree with you.......its most likely something that you'd never hear......but as the constant player of your own rig you are actually in the absolute best place to know the ins and outs.
But as every guitar is unique, so too are pickups, ears, rigs, rooms and every other part of the chain that leads to people hearing their tone.
I have had too much experience of swapping pickups between 2 guitars and curing the very same tonal problem in both of them (how on earth does that happen :run: ) to realise that its a very complex interaction that shapes the tone response that comes out the speaker at the far end. I'm therefore not prepared to say that there are not a lot of guitars that might actually be affected by the slight changes that the cap material swap would make.
 

CB91710

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This is a great demo that puts to bed the confirmation bias we all seem to have about "vintage" caps. Other than trying to preserve the value of an antique instrument (a real '59 LP with a 25 cent disc cap in it would be sacrilege), there's zero reason to spend $30 a piece (or more) because it affects "tone" in any way.

Mojo? Yes.
Tone? No.

Cap comparison
$30?
For $5 you can get the "SoZo" caps that make you sound like Jimmy Page.

But it looks like they changed the printing... Jimmy probably sent them a letter because the "SoZo" was done in script matching his "ZoSo"... so now they just say "SOZO"...
So my bag contains "lawsuit models" and I'll sell them for $50 each.


If I can find where I put the bag....
 

VictorB

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