Jimmy Page Tone Figured Out

[VictorB]

Why does everyone just gloss over the part of Tim's interview where hs says the guitar didn't have the original PAF from Zeppelin by the time he worked on Page's guitar?

Are you guys chasing Zeppelin or some other later sounds?

Right. The photo I posted is from the time period tone that most people are chasing. No push pulls, no Duncans…

 

[Classicplayer]

Why does everyone just gloss over the part of Tim's interview where hs says the guitar didn't have the original PAF from Zeppelin by the time he worked on Page's guitar?

Are you guys chasing Zeppelin or some other later sounds?

Don't know about others, but I'm always referencing Page's Zep live playing.

Classicplayer

 

[GilmourD]

Out of the million demos I've heard, it's not that close. Not bright enough at all!

I wonder what would happen if you sunk the screws in.

 

[Acey]

Why does everyone just gloss over the part of Tim's interview where hs says the guitar didn't have the original PAF from Zeppelin by the time he worked on Page's guitar?

Are you guys chasing Zeppelin or some other later sounds?

I didn't take the quote from the full interview, I took it from another post on this forum.

Oops

 

[Pierce103]

I love these threads! I'm using a ReWind JP Post 72 with a Seth Lover (put an A5 magnet) in the neck I've been prototyping an amp based on his 73-80 Marshall. Just figuring it out by ear but i started with a bass spec and have been changing it little by little.

The neck pick up isn't exactly where I wanted to be, but it gets decently close in my opinion. I am also using anniversary G2 H 30 in my cab

 

[Acey]

I love these threads! I'm using a ReWind JP Post 72 with a Seth Lover (put an A5 magnet) in the neck I've been prototyping an amp based on his 73-80 Marshall. Just figuring it out by ear but i started with a bass spec and have been changing it little by little.

The neck pick up isn't exactly where I wanted to be, but it gets decently close in my opinion. I am also using anniversary G2 H 30 in my cab

You nailed it! That's incredible!

Do you sell your amps?

 

[Pierce103]

You nailed it! That's incredible!

Do you sell your amps?

Thank you so much! Im a one man shop in SoCal right out of my home, and i can totally build one if anyones interested. DM me or find me on instagram (robpierce103) if interested.

Ive also modded a buddy's Marshall HW reissue, he's the guitarist in Led Zepagain so he has the perfect gig to relay any feedback on it lol.

 

[DavidR]

But the PAF is still in the neck? I wonder how close that neck pickup gets to the original PAF.

My 3rd time switching pickups to get Page tones I w

 

[Classicplayer]

I have never been sure that the original Page #1 neck pickup remained with the guitar throughout #1's existence. It certainly was (the neck pup) certainly must have been part of his “most used” middle position tone. If the original PAF was replaced at some point, it must have been wound in the character of the stock one. Just seems to me that Page used his neck pickups for the quiet , down low, strumming frequently as in “Ramble On”. I usually refer to his live rendition in “It Might Get Loud”, as to unaffected sound of his #1. IMHO, not a great tone by itself, but in an ensemble with his bandmates on stage…the tone fit the vocal of Page's “light & shade” philosophy.

Classicplayer

 

[landguitar]

Playing in a Zep tribute band, I have been trying to get closer to Page tones, but with no intention to use a Herco pick, play with even lighter strings (I use 9.5’s), knowing that even all my working to match his picking and attack style won’t get me there. And I play with gain closer to MSG than O2, but maybe more like 1977 or even 1969 Denmark TV. Anyway, I recently replaced the Wildwood spec pups in my 2018 R8 with a set from Bryan Williams, his MSG 1973 set. I really like them - articulate, a nice push in the bridge but clarity and some thinner tones in the neck, for things like the beginning of Over the Hills and Far Away, and Ramble On, and it’s way better than the WW spec buckers had, but my main complaint about those was they were almost too articulate, but with no “oomph”, and the bridge had to be on 10 to have ANY bite.

I thought about the ReWind, but James was moving and I couldn’t get them, AND, the Bryan Williams set is quite a bit less expensive. I can recommend the Bryan Williams set, although his YT demos are not the best.

 

[cdemike]

Playing in a Zep tribute band, I have been trying to get closer to Page tones, but with no intention to use a Herco pick, play with even lighter strings (I use 9.5’s), knowing that even all my working to match his picking and attack style won’t get me there. And I play with gain closer to MSG than O2, but maybe more like 1977 or even 1969 Denmark TV. Anyway, I recently replaced the Wildwood spec pups in my 2018 R8 with a set from Bryan Williams, his MSG 1973 set. I really like them - articulate, a nice push in the bridge but clarity and some thinner tones in the neck, for things like the beginning of Over the Hills and Far Away, and Ramble On, and it’s way better than the WW spec buckers had, but my main complaint about those was they were almost too articulate, but with no “oomph”, and the bridge had to be on 10 to have ANY bite.

I thought about the ReWind, but James was moving and I couldn’t get them, AND, the Bryan Williams set is quite a bit less expensive. I can recommend the Bryan Williams set, although his YT demos are not the best.

I haven't tried Bryan's pickups, but I do have an older set of ReWind JPPost72s which I'd assume are at least in the same ballpark. If that assumption has some basis in reality, I'd recommend trying to really dial in the heights and pole screws on the pickups. There's a super narrow zone where each of the individual pickups sound right while also getting the right amount of phase cancellation in the middle position to sound hollow and snarly. It's a delicate system where every piece of every part of the guitar interacts just so in order to get that super specific sound.

What I did to dial mine is is find sections of an unedited soundboard recording, mic up my rig as closely as I can to what I think they were using live (helps that there are tons of pictures of their live shows), and dial my pickups in from there. It helps to use segments where you can be reasonably sure you know exactly what his guitar control settings were like the loud sections of the Heartbreaker solo (bridge pickup, volume wide open). From there you can fine-tune individual pieces like the amp's settings, mic placement, etc., but I've found that once you're close the usual advice of checking differences by half-turns is too coarse to find the exact sweet spots given how all of the components need to be just right for the middle position to sound right. So I do 1/4 turns.

One thing that I've also found helpful dialing in Page sounds is to follow my ears ahead of my eyes with respect to pickup heights. None of our guitars will sound exactly like Number 1, and even if you don't buy the tone wood thing every guitar has a degree of production tolerance involved that impacts pickup placement, neck angle, etc. Beyond that, it's not likely that anyone has exactly the same string action, amount of neck relief, etc., which in combination with the differences in the guitars themselves means that dropping in a set of pickups adjusted exactly like the pictures show likely won't sound the same. So while it's helpful to know that setting the pickups lower than higher will get you closer, my guitar sounds closer with the pole pieces up higher than the pictures show (not crazy clickbait youtube thumbnail high, but definitely prouder than the tops of the covers).

I have a new set of JPPost72s ordered so I'm pretty excited for James to open back up and I'll be really interested in how different the setup will need to be to get the more accurate set sounding right in my guitar.

 

[VictorB]

These types of pickups play a huge role, however, the type of AMP being used plays an equal role.

 

[Classicplayer]

I haven't tried Bryan's pickups, but I do have an older set of ReWind JPPost72s which I'd assume are at least in the same ballpark. If that assumption has some basis in reality, I'd recommend trying to really dial in the heights and pole screws on the pickups. There's a super narrow zone where each of the individual pickups sound right while also getting the right amount of phase cancellation in the middle position to sound hollow and snarly. It's a delicate system where every piece of every part of the guitar interacts just so in order to get that super specific sound.

Agreed. When it comes to pole screws as well as pickup heights, I've found that a micro turn of the height screws and the pole screws can get my tone focused so that harmonics can be distingued easily no matter what type of chord I play and at any position on the fingerboard. That's not exactly Page tone, but it is the ideal tone for my own Les Paul. And I don't forget how imporant is setting the amp's e.q. and the volume level I need for the paractice room or the stage.

Classicplayer

 

[Acey]

These types of pickups play a huge role, however, the type of AMP being used plays an equal role.

Usually is good to start with a super bass and not a super lead. Jimmy has stated that he prefers them over super leads.

 

[Pierce103]

Usually is good to start with a super bass and not a super lead. Jimmy has stated that he prefers them over super leads.

This!
To my ears 1972 is a stock superbass
By 1973 you hear a big change.
The superbass tonestack is key in my opinion.

 

[coffeecupman]

Sure but weren't his modded to KT88s also? I'm almost certain it's not as simple as getting a Super Bass.

Amps certainly DO play a big role, but most people aren't going all the way with this.

Jimmy had his own custom Hiwatts, his '59 Supro Coronado was modded to have a GZ34 rectifier, an Oxford 12L6 speaker reconed with a pulsonic cone, and Mitch Colby said there were component value anomalies in the preamp. His amp was also a 110V model that he had a stepdown transformer mounted inside the amp for. With 240 British volts /2 he was probably driving a 110V/60Hz amp at 120V/50Hz.

The Marshalls as mentioned above were (I think), modified. The old Park KT88 amps sound very right here.

Zep II was recorded at Olympic studios at a time when they had a Vox UL7120, along with the Supro, a Transonic 4x12 cab loaded with Altecs that Jimmy brought back from the US, and god knows what else.

A lot of his sounds involve the tone benders and an echoplex.

Most people buy a Supro Black Magick and call it a day. You've got no hope if you're going to stop there.

Pickups are important but not as important as all THAT stuff.

 

[Classicplayer]

Sure but weren't his modded to KT88s also? I'm almost certain it's not as simple as getting a Super Bass.

Amps certainly DO play a big role, but most people aren't going all the way with this.

Jimmy had his own custom Hiwatts, his '59 Supro Coronado was modded to have a GZ34 rectifier, an Oxford 12L6 speaker reconed with a pulsonic cone, and Mitch Colby said there were component value anomalies in the preamp. His amp was also a 110V model that he had a stepdown transformer mounted inside the amp for. With 240 British volts /2 he was probably driving a 110V/60Hz amp at 120V/50Hz.

The Marshalls as mentioned above were (I think), modified. The old Park KT88 amps sound very right here.

Zep II was recorded at Olympic studios at a time when they had a Vox UL7120, along with the Supro, a Transonic 4x12 cab loaded with Altecs that Jimmy brought back from the US, and god knows what else.

A lot of his sounds involve the tone benders and an echoplex.

Most people buy a Supro Black Magick and call it a day. You've got no hope if you're going to stop there.

Pickups are important but not as important as all THAT stuff.

Well said, and precisely why I do not chase Page's tone with the gear that I own.
I think, we'd all be more satisifed and, possibly in some money, by paying attention to his overall tone characteristics and how you can apply that tone to your own gear while studying his creative abilties…IMHO.

Classicplayer

 

[SupremeCorn]

In the vein of amps, does anyone know what the difference (sound wise) between a super lead and super bass is? I was thinking of converting my 1959HW to bass-spec, since it seems like its just a matter of swapping a few components and seems otherwise reversible.

 

[VictorB]

The Super Bass has as a little more headroom.

 

[Pierce103]

Sure but weren't his modded to KT88s also? I'm almost certain it's not as simple as getting a Super Bass.

Amps certainly DO play a big role, but most people aren't going all the way with this.

I believe at least his main amp was modded with KT88s in 73. Thats what im basing my build on, it did start as a regular stock el34 bass spec.

In the vein of amps, does anyone know what the difference (sound wise) between a super lead and super bass is? I was thinking of converting my 1959HW to bass-spec, since it seems like its just a matter of swapping a few components and seems otherwise reversible.

Ive done a conversion (its a hybrid of Lead and Bass spec) for my buddy in Led Zepagain.
As far as sound differences the SuperBass is going to be smoother, fatter mids (tone stack is like Tweed Fender), much more low end, and no bright caps.

Here is the 1959HW i modded
I kept the EL34s and even the 33k/500pf tonestack but
-changed the coupling caps to Superbass spec (0.1uf on the PI)
-took out the V2 .68 bypass cap
-brought the bright cap down from 4700pf to 100pf
-added a ppimv