Jimmy Page Les Paul Wiring - Question...

Kenni

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Evening, good people.

I have a guitar player wanting me to do this type of wiring in his Les Paul:
2 Hum / 2 Vol / 2 Tone + Coil Split & Phase - using 4 push/pull pots.
Pickups are JB SH-4 in bridge and SH-2N Jazz in neck.

Is this also referred to as the "Jimmy Page Style Wiring" as found on Seymour Duncan's webpage?
Link to diagram here - Seymour Duncan "Jimmy Page Style Wiring"

Some clarification and opinions would be greatly appreciated :)
Cheers.
 

Kenni

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Yes, that is correct.
Hey, @TrippyStormtrooper :)
Thanks for the comment.

Okay, then all is good, that's great!
I looked through the different wiring diagrams, on Seymour Duncan's webpage, and when I couldn't find a similar diagram, then I searched Google, and it showed the wiring diagram as "Jimmy Page Wiring".

There's a lot of wires to solder and connect, but I believe it'll all be good!

One more thing...
I found this Jimmy Page 50's Style Mod on YouTube, and it's a little different from the one they show at Seymour Duncan, but is that because the YouTube one has the 50's Style Mod in it, and the Seymour Duncan one doesn't?

For example - both middle lugs on neck and bridge tone are soldered to the back of the pots, and on the Seymour Duncan one they're not?

Thanks again.
Cheers.
 

cooljuk

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There's a number of diagrams out there. There's a number of them with errors, also. I've only seen one or two that are actually what Page has in his guitar, with the under pick guard push/push switches. Before you dive in, find a diagram that others on forums have used and can verify correct.

I never used the Duncan one but I do remember folks saying the upside was that it used a standard 3-way switch but the downside was treble loss.

FWIW - Jimmy Page never had any of this switching installed until after Led Zeppelin. It was later, when he was in The Firm, that it was installed. When I inform interested clients about this, probably 4 out of 5 are no longer interested in having the switching installed because they just wanted Zeppelin sounds and didn't know he had the switching system installed later.
 

AJK1

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[QUOTE="cooljuk, post: 9249819, member:
FWIW - Jimmy Page never had any of this switching installed until after Led Zeppelin. It was later, when he was in The Firm, that it was installed. When I inform interested clients about this, probably 4 out of 5 are no longer interested in having the switching installed because they just wanted Zeppelin sounds and didn't know he had the switching system installed later.
[/QUOTE]
Too true
This always makes me laugh
 

Kenni

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There's a number of diagrams out there. There's a number of them with errors, also. I've only seen one or two that are actually what Page has in his guitar, with the under pick guard push/push switches. Before you dive in, find a diagram that others on forums have used and can verify correct.

I never used the Duncan one but I do remember folks saying the upside was that it used a standard 3-way switch but the downside was treble loss.

FWIW - Jimmy Page never had any of this switching installed until after Led Zeppelin. It was later, when he was in The Firm, that it was installed. When I inform interested clients about this, probably 4 out of 5 are no longer interested in having the switching installed because they just wanted Zeppelin sounds and didn't know he had the switching system installed later.
Thanks for the reply, @cooljuk :)
I appreciate you taking the time to write.

I totally get what you're saying - and it's important to find and use a diagram that's proper and solid!
I'm going with the Jimmy Page Wiring Diagram, found on Seymour Duncan's webpage, since the pickups are SD also.
I talked it over with the guitar player, and he agreed, so we should be good there :)

I told the guitar player the same thing, about Jimmy not using this config. with LZ, and he was fine with that, he just wanted the options and possibilities that the diagram offers.

Another question, if you don't mind..
Obviously there are a pretty amount of connection-wires, connecting the pots and push/pulls - for wiring those would something like Tinned Copper Wire do? Otherwise I was thinking of just using standard fabric sleeve wire (cloth wire).

Thanks again!
 

cooljuk

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Another question, if you don't mind..
Obviously there are a pretty amount of connection-wires, connecting the pots and push/pulls - for wiring those would something like Tinned Copper Wire do? Otherwise I was thinking of just using standard fabric sleeve wire (cloth wire).

Thanks again!
You're very welcome. It doesn't matter what wire you use. Teflon insulated stranded tinned copper in a fine gauge will probably be the easiest to work with. I think the cloth insulated wire on such a project would be an absolute nightmare to work with and look a mess, as well. It'll be bard to keep the ends from fraying.

I use solid copper buss wire on my JPP harnesses, and coat it with enamel to insulate it while keeping a crisp and clean look, after they are built. It looks great, but it's very difficult to work with.


Please understand I mean this with a great deal of respect and good intention - asking what type of wire/insulation you need to use is a very basic question. You're talking about a very advanced wiring project, commercially for a paying client. Just know what you are getting into, for both your best interest and the best interest of your customer.
 

Kenni

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You're very welcome. It doesn't matter what wire you use. Teflon insulated stranded tinned copper in a fine gauge will probably be the easiest to work with. I think the cloth insulated wire on such a project would be an absolute nightmare to work with and look a mess, as well. It'll be bard to keep the ends from fraying.

I use solid copper buss wire on my JPP harnesses, and coat it with enamel to insulate it while keeping a crisp and clean look, after they are built. It looks great, but it's very difficult to work with.


Please understand I mean this with a great deal of respect and good intention - asking what type of wire/insulation you need to use is a very basic question. You're talking about a very advanced wiring project, commercially for a paying client. Just know what you are getting into, for both your best interest and the best interest of your customer.
Thanks again, for your reply!
I see - thanks - I merely wanted to make abolutely sure, just in case something different would've been suggested :)
True, the cloth wire would probably be a nightmare, I can see that.

Sure, that harness looks excellent! Neat and crisp, for sure!

I fully understand your question and "worry"... Yes, my question were fairly basic, but again, I really wanted to make absolutely sure.
Thanks, I appreciate your concern, and I will, that's for sure.
 

wildschwein

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Thanks for the reply, @cooljuk :)
I appreciate you taking the time to write.

I totally get what you're saying - and it's important to find and use a diagram that's proper and solid!
I'm going with the Jimmy Page Wiring Diagram, found on Seymour Duncan's webpage, since the pickups are SD also.
I talked it over with the guitar player, and he agreed, so we should be good there :)

I told the guitar player the same thing, about Jimmy not using this config. with LZ, and he was fine with that, he just wanted the options and possibilities that the diagram offers.

Another question, if you don't mind..
Obviously there are a pretty amount of connection-wires, connecting the pots and push/pulls - for wiring those would something like Tinned Copper Wire do? Otherwise I was thinking of just using standard fabric sleeve wire (cloth wire).

Thanks again!
I used the Duncan scheme and it worked well. It was a great studio guitar. I eventually pulled it out and went to pretty straight up 50s wiring as I like just rolling back volume knobs. The one the thing I do miss from it is the ability to switch between series or parallel with both humbuckers selected -- that was cool. I do always have the out of phase option on all my twin humbucker guitars as it's a stock sound for me. Page may not have had the multi-option scheme during Zeppelin but he was a big user of out phase in the studio and used it on a lot of tracks probably with a variety of guitars. The system with 4 push pulls was originally called 'Superock' and was first offerd by Schecter as a wiring harness from what I can find.
Superock.png
 

cooljuk

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Page may not have had the multi-option scheme during Zeppelin but he was a big user of out phase in the studio and used it on a lot of tracks probably with a variety of guitars.
I don't think any of the guitars Page was known to play had pickup phase switches in Zeppelin.

Are there some particular song examples you are thinking of? Sometimes, people confuse the complex sounding middle position and resonant honk/quack sounds that Page got for being out of phase pickups but that's never been the case, as far as any songs I can recall at the moment.
 

Dazza

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I don't think any of the guitars Page was known to play had pickup phase switches in Zeppelin.

Are there some particular song examples you are thinking of? Sometimes, people confuse the complex sounding middle position and resonant honk/quack sounds that Page got for being out of phase pickups but that's never been the case, as far as any songs I can recall at the moment.
Tea For One has always sounded even more 'quacky' than Jimmy's typical post '72 tone. There's a fair amount of guitar going on and some of it really sounds OOP to me.

EDIT: Just watched a 1996 youtube vid of Page/Plant doing this song live. Jimmy never uses the post Zeppelin OOP push/pull option and yet has a convincing recreation of the tone and phrasing. Just more Jimmy magic I guess.

Daz
 
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wildschwein

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I don't think any of the guitars Page was known to play had pickup phase switches in Zeppelin.

Are there some particular song examples you are thinking of? Sometimes, people confuse the complex sounding middle position and resonant honk/quack sounds that Page got for being out of phase pickups but that's never been the case, as far as any songs I can recall at the moment.
He talks in a '77 Guitar Player interview about using Out of Phase with is Black Beauty Les Paul (LP) in the Yardbirds as beck couldn't get that sound with his LP. The Black Beauties shipped from the factory with the center position being treble and middle pick out of phase. There was no option for treble and bass pickup together. I'll do a scan of ithe interview when I get home from work and find the quote. He knew what out of phase was in '77 and had a history of using the setting on his Black Beauty which admittedly wasn't around after Led Zep II.

A lot of the "Houses of the Holy" tones sound nasal and out of phase to me. Also, "Since I've Been Loving You" comes to mind as being particularly filtered. Live, in Zeppelin, there is a story that he ran his souped-up Plexis with the treble on 10 and the bass on zero, mids on zero and Presence on 10. Wah as a tone filter will also give a similar sound to out of phase in the treble potion. There is no real consensus about this though -- we don't know that his LPs were actually hardwired in phase anymore than we know that they were. Neither of us can say that 100%. LPs in the center potion are quite bassy sounding. Admittedly there are variables that affect this such as whether it '50s or modern wiring, or independent volumes or not. For example rolling down volume on the bass pickup with non-independent wiring turns everything down. No one can say what he had on his live LPs up to 1980. The assumption is they were somehow stock but he had dropped another pickup in it at some point. T Top from memory. Guitar pickups can be put magnetically out of phase too. There are also some rumors/mythology that some guitars left the factory pre-1960s and were out of phase. I'm pretty sure the T-Top 'T' marking was to make sure this didn't happen later on as it was an alignment marking.

The majority of people assume he never used out of phase with Zeppelin based on his live rig(s) but in the studio he was known to use a multitude different amps and different guitars. People seem so sure of everything but even he would probably have trouble remembering. The sounds on the records are there though and if it sounds thin and sharp like in the "the Crunge" well you can get that tone with an out of phase setting pretty easily. Sure you could probably get it other ways too. It's not a static effect either as messing with volume knobs in out of phase settings can yield some pretty thick tones too.

A 101 treatment for any guitar tack is also to apply high pass filtering at the board to clean up the low end and an out of phase setting can let you bypass that step and get a nice pocket in a mix on the right sort of track.
 
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cooljuk

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The sounds you're describing, Page got live with the same guitars he played the rest of the set with. His bridge T-Top in #1 was not out of phase with the neck pickup. That guitar was used live more than any other and it's clearly in phase before and after the change.

The "T" on T-Tops indicates the top of the bobbin but many were still built with one upside down and it doesn't change the polarity of the pickup. I own one with a factory upside down slug bobbin. It sounds exactly the same as the rest.

Gibson did ship some guitars, like instruments with the Varitone circuits, with factory magnetically out of phase pickups. That isn't the case with any of the primary guitars Page is known to play, though. We can tell that by the live recordings.

I know the sounds you are talking about but it's not an OOP pickup sound. Page got very similar sounds out of the neck and bridge pickups alone, very often. It's just his gear and the way he plays it. Many would even say he sounds to not be playing a Les Paul at all, even on live recordings we have video of him doing so. That's just "Page-tone."
 

wildschwein

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The sounds you're describing, Page got live with the same guitars he played the rest of the set with. His bridge T-Top in #1 was not out of phase with the neck pickup. That guitar was used live more than any other and it's clearly in phase before and after the change.

The "T" on T-Tops indicates the top of the bobbin but many were still built with one upside down and it doesn't change the polarity of the pickup. I own one with a factory upside down slug bobbin. It sounds exactly the same as the rest.

Gibson did ship some guitars, like instruments with the Varitone circuits, with factory magnetically out of phase pickups. That isn't the case with any of the primary guitars Page is known to play, though. We can tell that by the live recordings.

I know the sounds you are talking about but it's not an OOP pickup sound. Page got very similar sounds out of the neck and bridge pickups alone, very often. It's just his gear and the way he plays it. Many would even say he sounds to not be playing a Les Paul at all, even on live recordings we have video of him doing so. That's just "Page-tone."
I doubt Page himself would recall as much as people who are experts on the net
OOP.png


He talks here too about the importance of OOP for him at about 1:42:

Source: https://classicrockreview.wordpress.com/2013/05/04/led-zeppelin-interview-with-steve-rosen-chicago-1977/
 

cooljuk

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In the first comment he talks about Telecasters in the Yardbirds. Additionally, he says he didn't care for the perceived change and didn't use whatever guitar he is referencing from.

In the next comment he says a "KIND OF out of phase sound" describing the same thing you did. Not actually wired out of phase.

In the video, he's talking about the mods to #2 POST Led Zeppelin, during his time in The Firm. Those switches were not installed during Led Zeppelin. There's plenty of photos and videos to show when they went in, not to mention the change in sound.

There is at least one tech on this forum who has actually been inside both Page's #1 and #2 Les Pauls (probably among others) and will confirm the pickups are in phase. ...and, yes, I ABSOLUTELY trust that professional's opinion, my ears, and my eyes more than the out-of-context words of an alcoholic junkie.
 

wildschwein

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In the first comment he talks about Telecasters in the Yardbirds. Additionally, he says he didn't care for the perceived change and didn't use whatever guitar he is referencing from.

In the next comment he says a "KIND OF out of phase sound" describing the same thing you did. Not actually wired out of phase.

In the video, he's talking about the mods to #2 POST Led Zeppelin, during his time in The Firm. Those switches were not installed during Led Zeppelin. There's plenty of photos and videos to show when they went in, not to mention the change in sound.

There is at least one tech on this forum who has actually been inside both Page's #1 and #2 Les Pauls (probably among others) and will confirm the pickups are in phase. ...and, yes, I ABSOLUTELY trust that professional's opinion, my ears, and my eyes more than the out-of-context words of an alcoholic junkie.
The only thing I would argue is that the out of phase sound was in his arsenal of tricks (of which there were many) and he was aware of it even from his early studio days where he had is used his Black Beauty (which is the Les Paul Custom referenced in the '77 Steve Rosen interview). He mentions it in that interview a bit as it had been stolen in 1970/71. The 3 pickup customs mainly came wired with middle and treble out of phase in center position:
Custom.png


Having said that it is more likely that at some point he used the sound in the studio during Zeppelin. It's more way more likely this is the case than he knew about it, lost his guitar around Led Zep II (which at the time it was lost was fitted with 3 toggles switches) and never used it on any Zeppelin track ever. But if that's what you believe that's cool.
3 toggle.png

3 toggle_2.png

3 toggle_3.png


I just see it as a tool for pulling a certain sort of sound and it works for me in a lot of compositions and mixes. I could point to several Zeppelin tracks where selecting out of phase will get you in the ballpark of the recorded guitar sound. In the end it's an effect which could be produced or emulated in a number of ways. I'm also a big fan of the Bill Lawrence half out of phase wiring which doesn't cut the volume and gives a slight quack:


However, I would rather play and write new music of my own than get into these chats that are stuck in the rear view mirror driving headlong into the past. I find it drains my positive energy and desire to engage and share information with people.
 

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