Jimmy Page #1 T-Top Bridge Pickup

Bryansamui

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Well, according to Bryan above, it sounds like the repair to the PAF maybe wasn't a great repair but more of a "just make it work at all" job until a new pickup could be sourced.

If one had called Gibson or a Gibson repair shop in 1972 and said "I need a new humbucker for a Les Paul, ASAP!" A T-Top is what would have arrived, as it was the current production humbucker model and Gibson, themselves, made no distinction. Any difference between a PAF and a T-Top was all up to players to figure out and decide many years later. To Gibson, and probably everyone else, they were just "humbuckers" and not some different model or noteworthy change in design

Well, according to Bryan above, it sounds like the repair to the PAF maybe wasn't a great repair but more of a "just make it work at all" job until a new pickup could be sourced.

If one had called Gibson or a Gibson repair shop in 1972 and said "I need a new humbucker for a Les Paul, ASAP!" A T-Top is what would have arrived, as it was the current production humbucker model and Gibson, themselves, made no distinction. Any difference between a PAF and a T-Top was all up to players to figure out and decide many years later. To Gibson, and probably everyone else, they were just "humbuckers" and not some different model or noteworthy change in design.
Well, I don't want to dis credit Merv Carghill because i simply don't know what he did repair wise?..I. know in New Zealand and Australia at that time, we didn't have "Pickup winders" (Guru's) like today...We had basic guitar repairers who at best might 'try their hand ' at reconnecting a coil from where it broke ..There was no info around back then..One just did their best...I wonder if Jimmy broke a coil bashing the living daylights out of it with that violin Bow? Who knows?
Jimmy appeared quite happy with T Top types . He had 4 in his Doubleneck, and 2 in his #2 at the time (a 1969 Goldtop painted Cardinal Red)
The earliest photo of the new pickup is Amsterdam May 27 1972...They only did 2 warm up shows in Europe. He played NZ/Aussie late Feb with the PAF..
 
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jbash

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I thought WLHBs weren't supposed to replicate any of the pickups Page had in the 1970s, but to be like the Duncans he put into #2 in the 1990s?
Well, there is a bit of wink wink nudge nudge from Duncan and Seymour over the years. He never outright claims anything, but...

The WLH are mostly likely based on the pickups Jimmy started using circa The Firm. It's unclear if they went into #1 and #2, but they definitely went in to #2. For years they were just known as the Jimmy Page custom shop set. Then there was some issue because they were using Jimmy's name without a business agreement ( a bad habit of Kathy/Seymour), and they disappeared from the website for awhile. They turned up a a year or so later as the UK limited run WLH set. Then a couple years after that, they became a production line set, though they have been changed over the years. Wire, magnets, bobbins, etc. not the same as the Custom Shop sets of yesteryear. I knew a gentleman through the Duncan forums who had all three sets- (JP, UK WLH, WLH) and running them in his JP#1 RI he claimed they all sound in the same ballpark but the Custom shop set is noticeably better than the other two. Could be MJ secret magic. But he stated the winds/mags/wire also looked different- and the bobbins were butyrate on his originals.

All of them are based on Seymour's special hot wind that was supposedly done for several big name guitar players when he was at the UK Fender Soundhousein the late 60s/early 70s- names floated about include Page, Beck, and Townshend. Rumor/scuttlebut is the pickups in Jimmy's #3 (The Goldtop refinished in Red and routed for humbuckers) were the Seymour rewinds on T tops. However, if you look at the giant thread here, there were clearly TWO #3s- one has wide binding in the cutout, and one does not- so who the hell knows.

In my experience, the WLH production set sounds VERY MUCH like the #3 guitar used during the filming of TSRTS movie*. Really nasal, more powerful, and much thicker than a T Top. So I'd be inclined to say the #3 rumor is truth.

Tangent over-

For the other debate, I'm firmly in the camp pf the T top/PAF combo was the best sounding set in #1. To me that is the ultimate Page tonality along with the Tele tones on LZ1.

*
 
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Bryansamui

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Well, there is a bit of wink wink nudge nudge from Duncan and Seymour over the years. He never outright claims anything, but...

The WLH are mostly likely based on the pickups Jimmy started using circa The Firm. It's unclear if they went into #1 and #2, but they definitely went in to #2. For years they were just known as the Jimmy Page custom shop set. Then there was some issue because they were using Jimmy's name without a business agreement ( a bad habit of Kathy/Seymour), and they disappeared from the website for awhile. They turned up a a year or so later as the UK limited run WLH set. Then a couple years after that, they became a production line set, though they have been changed over the years. Wire, magnets, bobbins, etc. not the same as the Custom Shop sets of yesteryear. I knew a gentleman through the Duncan forums who had all three sets- (JP, UK WLH, WLH) and running them in his JP#1 RI he claimed they all sound in the same ballpark but the Custom shop set is noticeably better than the other two. Could be MJ secret magic. But he stated the winds/mags/wire also looked different- and the bobbins were butyrate on his originals.

All of them are based on Seymour's special hot wind that was supposedly done for several big name guitar players when he was at the UK Fender Soundhousein the late 60s/early 70s- names floated about include Page, Beck, and Townshend. Rumor/scuttlebut is the pickups in Jimmy's #3 (The Goldtop refinished in Red and routed for humbuckers) were the Seymour rewinds on T tops. However, if you look at the giant thread here, there were clearly TWO #3s- one has wide binding in the cutout, and one does not- so who the hell knows.

In my experience, the WLH production set sounds VERY MUCH like the #3 guitar used during the filming of TSRTS movie*. Really nasal, more powerful, and much thicker than a T Top. So I'd be inclined to say the #3 rumor is truth.

Tangent over-

For the other debate, I'm firmly in the camp pf the T top/PAF combo was the best sounding set in #1. To me that is the ultimate Page tonality along with the Tele tones on LZ1.

*
We don't get to hear the neck pup on that Red guitar in the film...Gibson and Duncan don't do a Zeppelin set primarily because they use the wrong magnet types,but in their defence they're probably not trying to do a set from the iconic years..They've decided to replicate his sound from his less famous solo career for some strange reason.
Gibson "don't listen " though.. On the YT video from 2003: Jimmy tells Gibson that his #1now has a "Phase Pull Pull"....What does Gibson do on the reissue?..Well, they didn't listen to a word he said and put a coil split in it.. (Morons)
 

cooljuk

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Well, there is a bit of wink wink nudge nudge from Duncan and Seymour over the years. He never outright claims anything, but...

The WLH are mostly likely based on the pickups Jimmy started using circa The Firm. It's unclear if they went into #1 and #2, but they definitely went in to #2. For years they were just known as the Jimmy Page custom shop set. Then there was some issue because they were using Jimmy's name without a business agreement ( a bad habit of Kathy/Seymour), and they disappeared from the website for awhile. They turned up a a year or so later as the UK limited run WLH set. Then a couple years after that, they became a production line set, though they have been changed over the years. Wire, magnets, bobbins, etc. not the same as the Custom Shop sets of yesteryear. I knew a gentleman through the Duncan forums who had all three sets- (JP, UK WLH, WLH) and running them in his JP#1 RI he claimed they all sound in the same ballpark but the Custom shop set is noticeably better than the other two. Could be MJ secret magic. But he stated the winds/mags/wire also looked different- and the bobbins were butyrate on his originals.

All of them are based on Seymour's special hot wind that was supposedly done for several big name guitar players when he was at the UK Fender Soundhousein the late 60s/early 70s- names floated about include Page, Beck, and Townshend. Rumor/scuttlebut is the pickups in Jimmy's #3 (The Goldtop refinished in Red and routed for humbuckers) were the Seymour rewinds on T tops. However, if you look at the giant thread here, there were clearly TWO #3s- one has wide binding in the cutout, and one does not- so who the hell knows.

In my experience, the WLH production set sounds VERY MUCH like the #3 guitar used during the filming of TSRTS movie*. Really nasal, more powerful, and much thicker than a T Top. So I'd be inclined to say the #3 rumor is truth.

Tangent over-

For the other debate, I'm firmly in the camp pf the T top/PAF combo was the best sounding set in #1. To me that is the ultimate Page tonality along with the Tele tones on LZ1.

*

I had a MLP members' UK WLH and one of the first US sets that were made about the same time, and I had them at the same time. They were nothing alike each other, other than they were both warmer / darker sounding humbucker sets, heavy in the lower mids.

The materials (including bobbins, like you said) were entirely different - plastics, steels, wire, etc. and the design was quite different. It was very strange to me that they were considered to be the same set but maybe they decided to revise the design to counter the different parts?

Chewy and fat / vocal sounding. Not the honky / bright / chirpy / open / breathy Zeppelin in the 1970s sounds, at all.
 

cooljuk

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We don't get to hear the neck pup on that Red guitar in the film...Gibson and Duncan don't do a Zeppelin set primarily because they use the wrong magnet types,but in their defence they're probably not trying to do a set from the iconic years..They've decided to replicate his sound from his less famous solo career for some strange reason.
Gibson "don't listen " though.. On the YT video from 2003: Jimmy tells Gibson that his #1now has a "Phase Pull Pull"....What does Gibson do on the reissue?..Well, they didn't listen to a word he said and put a coil split in it.. (Morons)

Gibson pickup rule 23: "If you put an A3 magnet in any stock pickup model, it becomes an exclusive Artist Model."
 

Bryansamui

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Gibson pickup rule 23: "If you put an A3 magnet in any stock pickup model, it becomes an exclusive Artist Model."
Yep...What are they thinking? No attention to detail.. I simply don't think they have the time or resources (or maybe know how)to do it properly like you do James..As you well know, it doesn't take 5 minutes to voice a pickup..They've probably got too much on their plate so think " Just bang an A3 in there".. They'll still sell the guitar .'It's a Gibson Right!'

Gibson pickup rule 23: "If you put an A3 magnet in any stock pickup model, it becomes an exclusive Artist Model."
 

jbash

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I had a MLP members' UK WLH and one of the first US sets that were made about the same time, and I had them at the same time. They were nothing alike each other, other than they were both warmer / darker sounding humbucker sets, heavy in the lower mids.

The materials (including bobbins, like you said) were entirely different - plastics, steels, wire, etc. and the design was quite different. It was very strange to me that they were considered to be the same set but maybe they decided to revise the design to counter the different parts?

Chewy and fat / vocal sounding. Not the honky / bright / chirpy / open / breathy Zeppelin in the 1970s sounds, at all.
I'm guessing they would also have had to change some things up between all the sets to cut costs as they went from custom shop to limited edition to production line.

I do remember there was some backlash from the limited UK set owners as they had paid a premium for those, and many purchased them based on the "limited" factor. Duncan had basically said " really rare old wind, never going to make these again, UK sales only, get them while you can". I believe they were limited to 200 or 250 sets. I understand those people's frustration. They were duped to a certain extent.

There's just alot of bad mojo and half truths out there when it comes to Seymour/Kathy and many of those old affiliations: EVH, Hendrix, Page, Beck, Rev G, etc. I think the only story from a huge name that has any real proof and artist backing is Slash and the original A2 Pros.


EDIT- I meant to add- There was an interview linked here recently with MJ. According to her, the first day on the job back in the early 80s she was working on "Jimmy Page pickups" So they've been around a long time.
 

Classicplayer

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I started this thread back in Jan 2021 and even tho' I can't afford to acquire new pickups at this time (although this back and forth discussion keeps my interests peaked). I plug along with the Burstbuckers and enjoy what they give me. What I find fascinating is the sequence of events decades ago that is still written and talked about after so many years has passed. The science and art of pickup winding has advanced so far that we now can purchase today the tone we heard from that era and all we have to do is create the atmosphere from back then, which (itself) seems to be always be in very short quantities.

Classicplayer
 

Mr French

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Fellas, you have to remember that life was simpler in the 70s. You took what was available at the time and wasn't like you could go to a shop and ask for a PAF unless they actually sold used gear which was sort of uncommon.

You basically got what you got. I take it that's the reason for the mix n match set of pickups.

It's not like we could of done an internet search in those days. You actually had to get on the horn and call around which got expensive especially calling long distance and in most cases 10 miles was considered long distance lol.

To be fair there's a Youtube video of an auction house that has Jimmys $25k amp being demo with someone using a LP custom playing Zepplin riffs. The tone sounds absolutely nothing like Jimmy and that's using his $25,000 signature amp.
 

Bryansamui

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I'm guessing they would also have had to change some things up between all the sets to cut costs as they went from custom shop to limited edition to production line.

I do remember there was some backlash from the limited UK set owners as they had paid a premium for those, and many purchased them based on the "limited" factor. Duncan had basically said " really rare old wind, never going to make these again, UK sales only, get them while you can". I believe they were limited to 200 or 250 sets. I understand those people's frustration. They were duped to a certain extent.

There's just alot of bad mojo and half truths out there when it comes to Seymour/Kathy and many of those old affiliations: EVH, Hendrix, Page, Beck, Rev G, etc. I think the only story from a huge name that has any real proof and artist backing is Slash and the original A2 Pros.


EDIT- I meant to add- There was an interview linked here recently with MJ. According to her, the first day on the job back in the early 80s she was working on "Jimmy Page pickups" So they've been around a long time.
Thats funny haha.."First day on the Job"...Let's 'practice' on some Jimmy Page Pickups..
 

jbash

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Thats funny haha.."First day on the Job"...Let's 'practice' on some Jimmy Page Pickups..
I don't feel there is any reason to assume she was lying about it.

She could have been doing something as mundane as fitting polepieces and slugs, cover or similar.
 

Mr French

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I don't feel there is any reason to assume she was lying about it.

She could have been doing something as mundane as fitting polepieces and slugs, cover or similar.
Last week, I posted a video about MJ and Abigail who are both pickup winder legends. MJ talks about her first day on the job in this video.

I wish Gibson would do an interview with their current pickup winders. I'm eager to know who "PS" is as I've seen those initials and a lot of Gibby's humbuckers.
 

jbash

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Last week, I posted a video about MJ and Abigail who are both pickup winder legends. MJ talks about her first day on the job in this video.

I wish Gibson would do an interview with their current pickup winders. I'm eager to know who "PS" is as I've seen those initials and a lot of Gibby's humbuckers.
This is the video I was referencing. Thanks for dropping it here.
 

Elmore

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I thought WLHBs weren't supposed to replicate any of the pickups Page had in the 1970s, but to be like the Duncans he put into #2 in the 1990s?
Seymour Duncan is cagey about it. This is what they officially say:
8E2E9C29-2DA2-4AD6-B6FC-F1FFE647D980.jpeg
 

cooljuk

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Seymour Duncan is cagey about it. This is what they officially say: View attachment 626199

That's also been use referring to Jimi Hendrix.

Page had stock Gibson PAFs and T-Tops in the guitars that anyone cares about until the 1980s. It was important to him and his team to have gear that he could pick up easily and replace, wherever they were in their tours. That's the whole reason he reluctantly gave in and started using Marshalls.
 

AJK1

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I replaced the hideous pickups in my JP LP with Manlius Landmark pups and I sound just like JP now lol
 

Bryansamui

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I replaced the hideous pickups in my JP LP with Manlius Landmark pups and I sound just like JP now lol
Manlius do a T Top replica which will get tone chasers 1/3 of the post April 1972 sound...(the bridge tone) and possibly the mid sound which is actually more ultilized than either the bridge or neck position certainly in the live setting.. ...He may have a neck pup thats good, I really don't know?.. James Cooljuk has got a good one with a good magnet as do I....Unless it's "Page Specific", expensive boutique PAFs won't get you in the zone..The Page Neck was possibly a unicorn..
 

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My favorite Page neck tone is at 6:10 on this one. An Antiquity is close, but Page is a little more aggressive.
 

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