Is this in B minor?

[picoman]

Hi guys!
I need a little help.
Can you listen to the verse of this song.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_VEdra0wUE]Motörhead - I Ain't No Nice Guy - YouTube[/ame]
Its a half step down tunning.
B minor pentatonic for soloing over verse?
I can understand how if I have 4 major chords A - E - D and then closing A - G - D

 

[huw]

It's in A (let's ignore the 1/2 step downtuning )

A E D is just the I V IV chords from A major; the G thrown in at the end is a bVII, which you can interpret as coming either from A mixolydian, or A minor, depending on your personal proclivities...

So there is an over all scale of ABC#DEF#GG#, with either the G or the G# being selected as & when (stick with the G# apart from the A G D turnaround).

So you can play A major pentatonic - ABC#EF# over the whole thing without fear or any G/G# related clashes. (F# minor pentatonic is the same notes )

B minor pentatonic is BDEF#A, so again, that would work as it doesn't contain any G/G# so no clashes there.

Both those pentatonics work because they are both subsets of the overall scale of the piece.

Alternatively, you could solo with just chord tones. Or A major over the first part & A mixolydian over the second...

Choices, choices...



Must dash - Robert Plant is on telly...

 

[freak]

It's in A (let's ignore the 1/2 step downtuning )

A E D is just the I V IV chords from A major; the G thrown in at the end is a bVII, which you can interpret as coming either from A mixolydian, or A minor, depending on your personal proclivities...

So there is an over all scale of ABC#DEF#GG#, with either the G or the G# being selected as & when (stick with the G# apart from the A G D turnaround).

So you can play A major pentatonic - ABC#EF# over the whole thing without fear or any G/G# related clashes. (F# minor pentatonic is the same notes )

B minor pentatonic is BDEF#A, so again, that would work as it doesn't contain any G/G# so no clashes there.

Both those pentatonics work because they are both subsets of the overall scale of the piece.

what about a clash with A over a G#?

 

[huw]

what about a clash with A over a G#?

You mean playing the A note while the E chord (containing the G#) is sounding?

Just use it as a passing tone - if you land there for too long it could sound tense, but even that wouldn't be too bad. It's a note from the key, so it shouldn't sound as harsh as an chromatic note (eg - try an F against that E chord & see how that grabs you! )

In relation to the E chord an A note is the 4th, so you could imply a sus4 sound by falling from the A to the G#, or in a run up to the B (or beyond), etc.

It's one of those where - technically - you're correct to spot it as an "avoid" note, but in practice, it's actually very useable.

 

[picoman]

Does he changes the key at 2:13?
He has F sharp and B sharp chords going there?

 

[picoman]

Call me crazy but I use A minor pentatonic over the verese and it sound better then F minor / A major.
WTF?!

 

[JonR]

Call me crazy but I use A minor pentatonic over the verese and it sound better then F minor / A major.
WTF?!

F minor??? You mean F# minor?
F# minor (A major) pent - tuned a hal-step down remember - should sound OK on most of the verse, but A minor pent will give you a familiar rock-blues sound. (This is not really a blues, although it does have a bVII chord - G - in it.)

 

[picoman]

F minor??? You mean F# minor?
F# minor (A major) pent - tuned a hal-step down remember - should sound OK on most of the verse, but A minor pent will give you a familiar rock-blues sound. (This is not really a blues, although it does have a bVII chord - G - in it.)

upsssss, sorry....Yes F Sharp
But how is that you can use A minor pentatonic when the song is in A major?
It seem that A minor pentatonic has all the notes that are basicly chords used in the song verse, right?
A major pentatonic has F Sharp. B, C Sharp that are not used in the song verse as chords.
So the song is in MAJOR but for soloing use minor

 

[JonR]

Here's the full sequence for reference:

INTRO
|A - E - |D - - - |
|A - E - |D - - - |

VERSES
|A - E - |D - - - |
|A - G - |D - - - |
|A - E - |D - - - |
|A - G - |D - - - |
(x4)

|A - G D |A - - - |

BRIDGE
|F# - - - |B - - - |
|F# - - - |B - - - |
|E - - - |A - - - |
|A - G - |D - - - |
|A - G D |A - - - |

SOLO (bridge)
|F# - - - |B - - - |
|F# - - - |B - - - |
|E - - - |A - - - |
|A - G - |D - - - |
|A - G D |A - - - |

REPEAT VERSE x2

|A - G D |A_____ |

On the solo he uses scales as follows:
Bars 1-4: F#-B = F# minor pent
Bar 5: E = E major (C# minor) pent
Bar 6-10: (A-G-D-A) = combination of A major pent and A minor pent

 

[JonR]

upsssss, sorry....Yes F Sharp
But how is that you can use A minor pentatonic when the song is in A major?

You've been reading too much theory...

Blues players have been doing that for the whole of blues history (century and counting), and rock players likewise (60 years?) - so it's "right".

Don't get distracted by a limited view of what a "major key" is.

Sometimes, of course, music does obey those straight classical rules of the diatonic major key (I ii iii IV V vi viidim). But equally often - and more so in rock - it doesn't. And that's because blues (rock's main parent) doesn't; it has its own rules, which are at least as old and time-honoured as European classical music.

You can even find flattened 3rds and 7ths in major(ish) keys in British folk music, from before blues existed. The earliest British folk song collectors remarked on how singers tended to use what they called "neutral 3rds", which means somewhere between minor and major, or not caring which.
And of course you get similar effects in African music, so the blues in America was a natural result of those two mixed cultures.
Trying to fit European classical theory to it is like forcing a square peg into a round hole.

The issue is that the European notion of major and minor keys derives from classical practices involving the development of HARMONY. Harmony (ie, chords basically) means pitches have to be fixed according to scales tuned in specific and precise ways. Otherwise chords simply sound "out of tune". That's the culture in which most of the instruments we use were developed: led by the organ and piano of course, fixed to "equal temperament", as are the frets on a guitar.
But in cultures like those of Africa, or various folk cultures around the world, including Britain, where chords (as we know them) are not used, people sing and play using scales with flexible pitches - just singing notes that feel and sound right to them. And it seems that neutral 3rds (drifting between minor and major) quite often feel right, as do variable 7ths: sometimes b7s, sometimes "leading tone" major 7ths (when going up to the root).

In short, don't read theory books. Listen to the music and copy what you hear. That's how all the old masters of blues and rock learned their craft. Reading theory books will only confuse you... (at least if you expect the basic rules to always apply).

...

Having said that, there are elements of this tune where classical theory can be appled: namely that bridge, with the F# and B chords. Naturally, Lemmy won't have been reading theory books (as far as I know, the world is still turning on its axis...), he'll have heard sounds like that - often in bridges - in other songs. He'll have absorbed that effect of key change or modulation (or borrowed chords), and either copied it directly from somewhere, or found it while noodling, and recognised it that way.

But if you want a theoretical term, one does exist: "secondary dominant".
E is the primary dominant (V) of this song.
B is V of E, hence a secondary dominant ("V/V", dominant of the dominant); very common effect in country music, as well as in jazz and pop.
F# is another secondary dominant, "V/ii". Classically it would lead to Bm (ii), it's just that the Bm has been replaced with B (V/V).

The G in the song, meanwhile, is a bVII chord. Theory has three terms for this: "mode mixture", "modal interchange", or "borrowing from the parallel minor". (Now it would probably be Lemmy's turn to mutter "WTF?" )
But the point is, this is a rock convention. It's breaking no rules, in fact it's following a very common one. Rock major keys allow (in fact almost demand) bVII chords, just as they allow bIII and bVI occasionally (also "borrowed from the parallel minor").

IOW, while it's good to be curious about theory, there's no need to worry if a song appears to be breaking some rules. If it sounds OK, it isn't. It's just following rules you haven't read about yet...

 

[picoman]

Naturally, Lemmy won't have been reading theory books

Man, you Know so much.
Ive gotta digeste this First.

 

[Aligirl]

STOP STOP STOP! I'm sorry, you are all making me crazy. What? Ali

 

[JonR]

STOP STOP STOP! I'm sorry, you are all making me crazy. What? Ali

That's good!

Just take a look at Lemmy. Don't you want to be as cool as that?
He's only 23. You might think it's all the drugs, but actually he got that way by reading too many theory books.... it melted his brain. And now he's forgotten it all and he's COOL.

 

[Aligirl]

I speak biology and taxonomy. Theory causes my brain to short and balks at attempts to clarify. lol Ali

 

[picoman]

Well you can use A minor pentatonic for soloing.
But it seem that if you move this minor pentatonic shape 2 frets up---> to B...it sounds also good.
I think this is a mode...but I dont Know how its called.

 

[huw]

Not really a mode.

Bm pentatonic is the notes B D E F# A.

If you compare that to the scale I identified in my original reply (post #2), which was A B C# D E F# G G# A, you should see that all the notes of Bm pentatonic are present.

What you're doing, by playing the Bm pent scale, is using a sub-set of the parent scale. That's not really modal playing, so don't confuse yourself with that (wrong) idea.

There are other pentatonics hidden in that parent scale, that are all technically correct in that all the notes they contain are right, but they will have different sounds, due to the particular choice of notes that are included/omitted.

For instance try:

Em pent - E G A B D (that G may class in the earlier parts of the verse)

or

E major pent - E F# G# B C#

But - word of warning - I just picked those scales out by "eye", because I could see them in the parent scale. In real life, anything that the "eye" comes up with needs to be run past the "ear" for the final say - & the ear is in charge. If you don't like the sound, hten don't do it, regardless of whether it seems "technically correct".

 

[huw]

edit - just realised that I assumed (in my previous post) that you were talking about playing over the verses. The actual solo part of the song has different chords.

Thank you, Jon...

SOLO (bridge)
|F# - - - |B - - - |
|F# - - - |B - - - |
|E - - - |A - - - |
|A - G - |D - - - |
|A - G D |A - - - |

On the solo he uses scales as follows:
Bars 1-4: F#-B = F# minor pent
Bar 5: E = E major (C# minor) pent
Bar 6-10: (A-G-D-A) = combination of A major pent and A minor pent

The E A G & D chords all come from the original parent scale I was just talking about. So the only discrepancy is with the F# & B chords.

F# = F# A# C#
B = B D# F#

Looking carefully, there are just two notes there that we don't already have in play - the A# and the D#.

So compare them to the Bm pent scale - B D E F# A. You can probably get away with the D, because that provides the major/minor third clash (over the B chord) that Jon was talking about. The A could do the same thing against the F# chord, but I think that the scales listed above are a better fit.

Having said that, I did just say that the ear is in charge, so if it sounds good to you, then go for it.