Interest in a live sound sub-forum?

[efstop]

...it's not rocket surgery.

This is Rocket Surgery:

 

[Marshall & Moonshine]

So at our church, i have a small 8 channel Mackie (old one) with a 9-band graphic EQ for the mains and monitors. The room is probably 40’W x 60’L x 14’H, with no sound treatment.
What’s the best way to do an initial setup for them? I hear ringing the room is one way, injecting and analyzing white noise is another. Should i do mains or monitors first? I think i would do mains, then monitors, then both to check. After that, I’d probably still ring the monitors. Does that make sense, or seem reasonable?
Can someone explain the best method to do it?
I can inject the white noise with my phone and use the Spectrum app on my iPad to read the results, if those are suitable tools.
Just looking for a good starting point, because it’s never been professionally done, and gets dicked with from time to time, and then we plug in a guitar and it sounds like its made of tin, when two weeks prior, it sounded fine into the same channel.

 

[Slick]

No! you have misunderstood me for the last time sir!

I mean set up wrong as in 'SMunky' has not put you high enough in the monitors so you cannot hear your guitar at all. I know people go on about stage volume and the need to keep it down, but at the hands of some of these 'SMunkys' the on stage sound is a din and you would not hear a 20 watt amp if it wasn't in the wedges. Of course, if you bring your own monitor, that completely misses the point of my point. Nothing against modellers! I just think it's better to bring your own monitor if you use an amp modeler is all, for these type of venues anyway.
Maybe the UK is just a Third World country - that's probably it.



^

^^This is what I'm getting at.^^

3rd world is right! If you have 2 or 3 bands on a night the headline sets up first and the others in front of them. Often the SMunkey is only around for the headliners soundcheck and sets up for them. The openers are lucky to get a soundcheck at all.

Modeller/profiler into powered Cab is no different to amps on stage for all practical purposes

 

[edro]

Modeller/profiler into powered Cab is no different to amps on stage for all practical purposes

Powered cab on floor, stage front aimed to stage rear, is far different than big iron on a 4x12 aimed forward.

No kill zone out into the audience, guitarist can crank as loud as he wants without affecting the mains, having a near field instead of somewhere back behind him, he can hear himself over that freaking mind numbing full blown psycho multi freq doppler effect generating ride cymbal from hell....

Anybody that has gigged knows about that demon ride cymbal from hell....

 

[edro]

Yeah, if you ain't headline, you pretty much get what you get in a lot of cases... Volume and whites...
Sucks...but that is how it is many times...

 

[Freddy G]

Powered cab on floor, stage front aimed to stage rear, is far different than big iron on a 4x12 aimed forward.

No kill zone out into the audience, guitarist can crank as loud as he wants without affecting the mains, having a near field instead of somewhere back behind him, he can hear himself over that freaking mind numbing full blown psycho multi freq doppler effect generating ride cymbal from hell....

Anybody that has gigged knows about that demon ride cymbal from hell....

I'm not going to quote all the comments pertaining to making modellers work on stage, but I'll just say I that as a guitarist I have done the modeller thing where I relied on the house system for my monitoring needs. First few times it was a FOH soundguy that is my friend, he worked with me to get the level I wanted and general EQ of the monitor wedges and still.....still.... I HATED it. I tried a number of times until I just realized, if you're using an unfamiliar monitor system, no matter how good it is, it's....unfamiliar. And I can't tolerate that. So after that whenever I used a modeller at a gig I always bring my own cab. There it is. My sound....the sound I rehearsed the band with yadda yadda.

The other thing with modellers...this now from the perspective when I'M the slider munkey. I rarely have mixed a guitarist with a modeller going direct to the console that sounded really consistent and with patches that didn't sound weird/needed crazy EQ/leveling etc. Especially when they have all kinds of different sounding patches....that's usually a nightmare of inconsistency in tone and levels. I've mixed a few real pros that had their shit together and really knew how to program patches so I didn't have to do anything on the console to compensate every time they switched. And interestingly, they usually stuck to just a few core amp models but with different effects switching rather than a new model for every song. Consistency!

So, all I'm saying is unless you've got serious production skills in creating patches for a live show that all translate to a PA....you're SO much better off with just a good sounding amp and pedals.

 

[edro]

I'm not going to quote all the comments pertaining to making modellers work on stage, but I'll just say I that as a guitarist I have done the modeller thing where I relied on the house system for my monitoring needs. First few times it was a FOH soundguy that is my friend, he worked with me to get the level I wanted and general EQ of the monitor wedges and still.....still.... I HATED it. I tried a number of times until I just realized, if you're using an unfamiliar monitor system, no matter how good it is, it's....unfamiliar. And I can't tolerate that. So after that whenever I used a modeller at a gig I always bring my own cab. There it is. My sound....the sound I rehearsed the band with yadda yadda.

The other thing with modellers...this now from the perspective when I'M the slider munkey. I rarely have mixed a guitarist with a modeller going direct to the console that sounded really consistent and with patches that didn't sound weird/needed crazy EQ/leveling etc. Especially when they have all kinds of different sounding patches....that's usually a nightmare of inconsistency in tone and levels. I've mixed a few real pros that had their shit together and really knew how to program patches so I didn't have to do anything on the console to compensate every time they switched. And interestingly, they usually stuck to just a few core amp models but with different effects switching rather than a new model for every song. Consistency!

So, all I'm saying is unless you've got serious production skills in creating patches for a live show that all translate to a PA....you're SO much better off with just a good sounding amp and pedals.

Yep, when I bought JBL PRX boxes a few years back, I listened to em side by side, same source, same wav, same console, with me across the room so I had no clue what was lit up at any given time. JBL smoked the others with QSC being probably closest.

Point is, with the same everything but output drivers, the tone colors were all over the place. They all had their own coloring, JBL then QSC I think the truest. JBL horns are better/warmer.

Tweak a modeler through a JBL or QSC....then at a gig, you are running through a Peavey... You'll probably think your modeler went south... Just ain't gonna sound the same.... Swap the JBL and Peavey around. Same deal. Not even close....

As far as different patches, amen to that. I enjoy playing guitar through an Digitech RP500 which although it has some modeling capability, I have amp/cab modeling off as I use it through my tube amps and wish to hear my amps.... Love that thing... Seperate stomp buttons for Comp, Dist, Chorus, DDL, Rev, and a configurable expression pedal.

As true with about every multistomp out there, the factory patches were likely done by a drunk cab driver from a third world country that learned English from reading Cracker Jacks boxes and Mad Magazine while he was doing acid and radiator tequila... THEY PRETTY MUCH SUCK.... Especially all that whirlygig star trek bullshit...

Inconsistent is usually an understatement with any modeler or multistomp... You gotta learn the system to tweak. You gotta tweak to make it consistent. You gotta make it consistent to trust using it...

Tweaking, you can make em sing. Some folks won't even explore options in the 'knob section' on their guitar.... much less, edit settings in some unit...

On my RP, I have three patches I use. Three. One for Lesters, one for single coils, and one for bass....next to each. If I put on a Lester, I go to that patch and stay there, still kick any effect on/off with it's own dedicated kick button. Each effect within the single patch has been tweaked like hell. Default on each patch is pretty much no kick on so I can kick ANY of the effects on/off within that one patch... Just like individual pedals... I had to tweak/edit to set it up that way. I see a modeler as the same...Get in a good room with a good sound system, and go to tweaking for live use... Unless you use your own cab every time, it will never be the same show to show...

 

[Rocco Crocco]

I’m still not seeing the trouble with just having the sound guy put some modeler in the wedges. He just twists a knob until the guitar player gives a thumbs up and the sound guy does what he wants with the house. How is it more complicated than miking an amp? Seems less complicated, to me, because you don’t have to worrry about mic placement. The XLR is already there; just yank the mic off it and plug it in.
Again...
Not defending modelers...
I think they’re stupid.
Just not seeing the problem being described here, beyond stage image.
Provided the PA has the power to pull it off, of course. If they were gonna mic your cab anyway, i don’t see the big deal, if the band doesn’t mind it being in the monitors.

Yeah. I have a modeller and use it live. For anyone running the PA, there is no difference between going direct and mic'ing a cab. The only question for the fader jockey to know is if it's line or mic level. I can give him either.

Freddy's point earlier about EQ and volume differences between presets causing problems for the FOH guy can be true, though. I only use 3 presets live so i don't have that issue.

 

[RAG7890]

......lots of sound advice.