important:...Stopping fake Les Pauls

shtdaprdtr

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What I don't get is why the builders that make the counterfeits that are pretty good guitars (and I know that most of them suck, but I have seen people post that they bought a Chinese LP and liked it enough to use it) don't just start putting their own names on their guitars and selling them as Les Paul copies.

I get that the $249 ones are going to suck harder than a Tijuana hooker, but the decent playing ones could be sold under their own name. "Gaijin," anyone?

yes but with hundreds of companies making LP copies they'll get a smaller piece of the pie...write Gibson on it and peoples eyes light up...some companies actually admit to making replicas..oh and by the way..this in no way pertains to high quality luthier built replicas. For the ones that claim they are replicas...I could care less about them...its in the used market that people get screwed..A couple of times I have found Real good ones. Ive seen a lot of the famous..."I had a friend that worked in the custom shop" guitars on Ebay that looked damn good...even took a chance with a so-called R9 neck that I suspected fake then but luckily it was good wood..a little work and slight shimming with the fitment (one side where the heel met the body was a hair short but a tiny piece of veneer and glue fixed that). but otherwise I was lucky. But Ive seen real good fakes of customs using real fingerboards..they called it a pancake body..but the pancake was in the wrong direction and some bidders caught it and knocked him off..people bid up to 1700 on that one. There was another I found recently with an LP deluxe...a little detail with the tenon was off.
 

shtdaprdtr

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Sorry, I'm new here, but I've got an opinion. I respectfully disagree with the OP. I'm not sure if it's been said, but educating people would do more damage to counterfeiters by cutting into their potential buyers. More so than posting correct info that counterfeiters could use. IMHO, of course.

Since you were being respectful and not so arrogant, I respect your opinion.
Its actually a double edged sword topic if you really think about it
 

jimmyb21

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-=[Shifty]=-;1749458 said:
YDDDYBPPP

Y = Year
D = Day
B = Batch number (changes to 1 after 699 stamped instruments, on a particular day)
P = Production number (1-300 reserved for acoustics)

"014290623" would mean it's the 323rd electric guitar stamped on the 142nd day of 2009 (May 22nd).

It's not exactly rocket science.

BTW, I made that serial number up. You can check it The Guitar Dater Project - Gibson Serial Number Decoder. :thumb:

No it's not rocket science IT's STATISTICS! I'm saying the random odds of coming up with a valid serial number are near nil. I know the format of credit card number, but the odds of me going on a ebay and randomly generating a valid credit card number is next to nil.

So, Im saying, the serial number will just a serial number randomly generated and when you tried to register the guitar with Gibson, it would come up invalid much like if I typed in random numbers in the format of a credit card number.

EDIT: Here's an article from Gibson....the serial number is apparently one of the biggest mistakes counterfeiters make. The article describes how with a single phone call to Gibson, a pawn broker or really anyone can indentify a Gibson guitar as authentic or a fake. Your randomly generated serial number worked because the engine on that website you were using is simply a reader. It's not being bounced off a database. All you proved was that you can read and type.

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/ProductSpotlight/GearAndInstruments/Gibson Serial Numbers/
 

colchar

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No it's not rocket science IT's STATISTICS! I'm saying the random odds of coming up with a valid serial number are near nil. I know the format of credit card number, but the odds of me going on a ebay and randomly generating a valid credit card number is next to nil.

So, Im saying, the serial number will just a serial number randomly generated and when you tried to register the guitar with Gibson, it would come up invalid much like if I typed in random numbers in the format of a credit card number.

EDIT: Here's an article from Gibson....the serial number is apparently one of the biggest mistakes counterfeiters make. The article describes how with a single phone call to Gibson, a pawn broker or really anyone can indentify a Gibson guitar as authentic or a fake. Your randomly generated serial number worked because the engine on that website you were using is simply a reader. It's not being bounced off a database. All you proved was that you can read and type.

What You Need to Know About Gibson Serial Numbers

Newer Epiphone serial numbers are not in the Gibson database.
 

jimmyb21

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It took that comment from him for you to figure that out?

;)

I was holding on to the benefit of the doubt for him...now I think he probably made that little kid cry by telling him his mommy was a counterfeit.
 

-=[Shifty]=-

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No it's not rocket science IT's STATISTICS! I'm saying the random odds of coming up with a valid serial number are near nil. I know the format of credit card number, but the odds of me going on a ebay and randomly generating a valid credit card number is next to nil.

So, Im saying, the serial number will just a serial number randomly generated and when you tried to register the guitar with Gibson, it would come up invalid much like if I typed in random numbers in the format of a credit card number.

What's a valid serial number to you? Are you trying to tell me that there's no Gibson guitar with that serial number?
Why don't you write a mail to Gibson with the serial# and see what they come up with? I bet it's not invalid and that they have a guitar with that serial# in their database.

EDIT: Here's an article from Gibson....the serial number is apparently one of the biggest mistakes counterfeiters make. The article describes how with a single phone call to Gibson, a pawn broker or really anyone can indentify a Gibson guitar as authentic or a fake. Your randomly generated serial number worked because the engine on that website you were using is simply a reader. It's not being bounced off a database. All you proved was that you can read and type.

What You Need to Know About Gibson Serial Numbers

So? Are you really trying to educate me about fakes?
There's nothing in that article that I didn't already know.

As for guitardater, I know that it's not a database, but the average Joe out there doesn't.
We have so many people coming here, believing their guitars are legit because it checked out on that site. They don't even bother to check with Gibson.
I've seen people buy supposed Gibsons with serial numbers indicating that the guitar was made on the 909th day of 1952. Then they're surprised that it turns out to be fake. :shock:
 

colchar

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-=[Shifty]=-;1751008 said:
I've seen people buy supposed Gibsons with serial numbers indicating that the guitar was made on the 909th day of 1952. Then they're surprised that it turns out to be fake. :shock:

Oh c'mon Dude - everyone knows that the 909th day of 1952 was a great one for guitars, particularly Les Pauls. Why must you shit on the birthdate of some people's guitars?!?
 

jimmyb21

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-=[Shifty]=-;1751008 said:
What's a valid serial number to you? Are you trying to tell me that there's no Gibson guitar with that serial number?
Why don't you write a mail to Gibson with the serial# and see what they come up with? I bet it's not invalid and that they have a guitar with that serial# in their database.



So? Are you really trying to educate me about fakes?
There's nothing in that article that I didn't already know.

As for guitardater, I know that it's not a database, but the average Joe out there doesn't.
We have so many people coming here, believing their guitars are legit because it checked out on that site. They don't even bother to check with Gibson.
I've seen people buy supposed Gibsons with serial numbers indicating that the guitar was made on the 909th day of 1952. Then they're surprised that it turns out to be fake. :shock:

1. What is a valid serial number to me?

Dear professor, I was under the impression that this term was self-explanatory. But as I was taught at the university I should define my terms. Valid Serial Number - a serial number impressed upon a Gibson guitar, manufactured by Gibson, and registered in their database.

2. Yes, perhaps you have written a serial number IN THE CORRECT SYNTAX. But you fail to understand randomness and how it works, perhaps you are a Rocket Scientist, I hear they can send a man to Mars but often have trouble with simple tasks. Even though you can make one up with they syntax, much like I can come up with a series of random digits that will probably match some credit card somewhere, the odds of that number not only being real but also having the unique features of the specific card(expiration date, security code)are few and far between. Much like you can come up with a serial number in correct format, the odds of you coming up with one to match all the parameters to match Gibson's database...are Statisically nil.

If Gibson has no way of knowing anything other than yep that serial number matches a guitar we made...then they've just done more to help counterfeiters than any opinions we may give people on this message board.

3. Your website, calls itself a DECODER. guitar serial numbers are coded, it simply breaks apart the code. you put in a serial number in correct syntax and it told you exactly what you already know. Who are 'these people' these 'average joes' these 'mythical individuals' you have based this entire thread on? Really who would go to that website to see if their guitar was fake? And if they did a simple reading of its purpose would enlighten you to the fact that its a mere decoder.

4."We have so many people coming here, believing their guitars are legit because it checked out on that site. They don't even bother to check with Gibson." This only exemplifies what we are saying about these 'people' buying fake guitars...they are free market imbeciles. Again, if you buy a guitar on ebay for a deal sweater than my finger after I left my gf's house at 16; if you 'check' your serial number on a mere decoder sight; if you treat the purchase of a $2,000 guitar with the the market reserach you give cereal...then for the last time IT'S ON YOU.

I started to feel like Jeff Foxworthy at end.
 

moff40

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Somebody pays attention to forums. A year or so ago, most of the fake
Gibson Les Pauls had 3 screw trussrod covers, and the wrong color on the backplates. After this was pointed out dozens (hundreds?) of times they changed them.

If you don't know the difference between a fake and a real one, buy used from a reputable dealer here. Or the classifieds.

And you think that they changed the TRC because of what was written here at MLP? Talk about megalomania! Give your head a shake - all they had to do was look at a real one.
 

moff40

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You get year, model, and something else I can't quite remember ...

Decoding the Gibson serial number gives you date of manufacture and production number. That's it. The first and fifth are the year, 2, 3, and 4 is the day of the year, and 6,7, and 8 are the production number.

You see the odd fake with a serial like 25761350 that indicates the guitar was built 576th day of year 21 (would that be 1921 or 2021?) :)
 

moff40

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Here's the deal guys:

This whole debate is moot. The fact is that what we post here means nothing, and to think that the counterfeiters are getting their info from this site is simply paranoia (or megalomania) in action. I think some of us overestimate our importance...

Do you actually think that the counterfeiters don't KNOW everything that's wrong with their product? The truth is that the correct measurements and even blueprints are readily and freely available elsewhere (even in books - maybe we should burn them). And if you REALLY think about it, a counterfeiter could easily do a bit of "data mining" and assemble a definitive "how to" guide from all the articles written about fakes all over the 'net for the past 15 years. Have they? Despite having all of that information available, no, they have not.

What we write here is chump change. Continue to help your fellow MLPer - tell him\her WHY a guitar is a fake.
 

jimmyb21

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Decoding the Gibson serial number gives you date of manufacture and production number. That's it. The first and fifth are the year, 2, 3, and 4 is the day of the year, and 6,7, and 8 are the production number.

You see the odd fake with a serial like 25761350 that indicates the guitar was built 576th day of year 21 (would that be 1921 or 2021?) :)

No I mean what information Gibson has on their side...ie.. if it was only a serial number telling those dates then in essences as a means of quality control they'd be pointless. But Gibson records the model and other facts about the guitar the serial number is assigned to.
 

jimmyb21

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here's the deal guys:

This whole debate is moot. The fact is that what we post here means nothing, and to think that the counterfeiters are getting their info from this site is simply paranoia (or megalomania) in action. I think some of us overestimate out importance...

Do you actually thing that the counterfeiters don't know everything that's wrong with their product? The truth is that the correct measurements and even blueprints are readily and freely available elsewhere (even in books - maybe we should burn them). And if you really think about it, a counterfeiter could easily do a bit of "data mining" and assemble a definitive "how to" guide from all the articles written about fakes all over the 'net for the past 15 years. Have they? Despite having all of that information available, no, they have not.

What we write here is chump change. Continue to help your fellow mlper - tell him\her why a guitar is a fake.

+1!

I don't understand why people are even thinking it's a bad thing to tell people when fakes are abound. They are operating on some assine assumption that counterfeiters are on this site trying to make their products better. IF ANYTHING, Economics 101 will teach you putting MORE information out there makes it harder for counterfeiters because more people are aware of how to spot them...this forces them to take more steps increasing production cost and making their business model unprofitable.
 

colchar

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Here's the deal guys:

This whole debate is moot. The fact is that what we post here means nothing, and to think that the counterfeiters are getting their info from this site is simply paranoia (or megalomania) in action. I think some of us overestimate out importance...

Do you actually thing that the counterfeiters don't KNOW everything that's wrong with their product? The truth is that the correct measurements and even blueprints are readily and freely available elsewhere (even in books - maybe we should burn them). And if you REALLY think about it, a counterfeiter could easily do a bit of "data mining" and assemble a definitive "how to" guide from all the articles written about fakes all over the 'net for the past 15 years. Have they? Despite having all of that information available, no, they have not.

What we write here is chump change. Continue to help your fellow MLPer - tell him\her WHY a guitar is a fake.

Well said.
 

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