I'm shocked and amazed.

dbruno

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Honestly, if that were my guitar and assuming it was a keeper. That whole setup would be gone the next day. Get yourself a set of pots from Vintage Inspired Pickups and some PIO caps you like. Real Bees’s, Luxe etc.. this setup will be head and shoulders above what’s in there now. Yes, it should already be in there for the money you paid, but that’s the way it is. It would piss me off too. I own 2 older Les Paul’s, an R7 and R9. Both have been redone by Kim at Historic Makeover. I’m done. I can’t imagine paying Gibson’s current asking price these days. Absolutely insane for what your getting.
 

zdoggie

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Hi red planet I agree totally ,I believe there are alot of folks that are thinking twice before their purchase .This doesen't have to be this way I believe that gibson stockholders are a bunch of greedy assholes that don't play guitar ,ergo there
inlies the problem my last gibson was a ri 59 LP I havent looked at the wiring closely but it doesn't sound all that great
I think my next purchase will be Mc Carty PRS much better quality because paul actually plays .

zdog
 

Red Planet

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I really cannot disagree with anyone here at all. I should preface why I want what I want for clarification. My desire for 50s wiring accuracy is not coming from a vintage purist mindset though that part is cool too. My desire is to have an instrument that works for playing gigs. 50 s wiring when it works turns your Les Paul into an instrument that cleans up well from an overdriven state that assist in a very simple rig that covers a lot of basses all from the guitar with subtle use of the volume and tone controls.

It is very difficult for me to describe what's happening with these Gibson electronics. Stock they are just awesome for full on Overdriven Rock. They are actually perfect for that. They seem to falter if your trying to do funk three note chords or other material that requires brilliant cleans. After changing the pickups and all electronics in my Standard 50s I get those options available from just the guitar into amp. Now perhaps I just use the Standard for gigs and leave the R8 well alone, that is probably the wiser choice but I have never been called cautious.

For now I'm going to replace the fake Bumble Bees with the Greeny Meanies and convert the stock wiring to 50s thought its possible this may not yield the results I want. I'm going with the .015 for the neck and the .033 for the bridge as this seemed to work well on the standard. My hope is that I can get a little better results from a slight change though pot values and taper can greatly affect the results as well.

Most of the gigs I play are 50 to 100 people venues and since I'm getting older (56) I'm liking as minimal rig as possible. I been taking one guitar, one overdrive pedal (with battery) and the little Quilter Aviator Cub and using a clip on tuner. It makes for a small but versatile rig though the guitar has to cooperate in the chain.

The crazy thing is I suppose I'm taking this minimal thing to an extreme as my pedal board has 4 pedals on it and I'm not taking it. With being able to play slightly overdriven, to loud clean, to softer clean from the guitar alone and occasionally using an overdrive pedal to kick it all in the pants it's just a very nice easy setup and teardown.

I have done this kind of setup with my PA as well. I have been using the little Yamaha EMX512SC 1000 watt head with four Yamaha CBR10 Passive Cabs. We only pipe Vocals into to the PA and its perfect for small gigs, for bigger situations I add a pair of 15 powered Mackies and use the four Yamahas for monitors only. It makes for a great grab and go system.
 

Red Planet

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Yawn... yet another I'm not buying another Gibson story. ZZzzzZZzzzzzzz

Not at all, I'll be buying more used Gibsons for sure if my wife lets me live that long. She isn't near as excited as I am about new guitars.
 

Red Planet

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Hi red planet I agree totally ,I believe there are alot of folks that are thinking twice before their purchase .This doesen't have to be this way I believe that gibson stockholders are a bunch of greedy assholes that don't play guitar ,ergo there
inlies the problem my last gibson was a ri 59 LP I havent looked at the wiring closely but it doesn't sound all that great
I think my next purchase will be Mc Carty PRS much better quality because paul actually plays .

zdog


I'm not sure I can fault Gibson but I would rather purchase something that has the functionality I need then have to mod everything I buy. I can understand how Gibson never gives you a guitar with all the recipe as then we all spend our time and money chasing the elusive and keep buying. I get that but that recipe doesn't help me play Gigs it makes me spend a boat load of time working on guitars rather than playing them. I post about to get others thoughts though I take most of it with a grain of salt.

If ones Gibson works for them the way it is I do not suggest going down the rabbit hole. Only in pursuit of functionality is the effort rewarding IMO.
 

Red Planet

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Go to go now though I will check in on the road. I'm going to try and book some new shows, its really freakin tough right now.
 

Henning

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Gibson junk ! The onlu proper is the price ! Try Heritage .
 

Garage Joe

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EE perspective:

The length of your cable and the age of the wet (electrolytic) caps in your amplifier will have a thousandfold greater effect on your tone than how a tone pot is wired.

PIO caps are very thermally sensitive. If you can tell the difference in tone between a ceramic cap and a PIO, you should also be able to tell the difference between a PIO in the morning vs the evening.

Just checked my 2021 CS. It's loaded with bottom-of-barrel ceramic disc caps in 'modern' wiring. Mind you, this thing is full of oddities. But, it sounds great.
 

Red Planet

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I think it would be really hard to tell the difference in a guitar from PIO to other construction. The 50s wiring into a ultra high impedence channel or buffer very easy to tell.
 

Archtopanimal

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After watching some very good Youtube vids on guitar cap comparisons , I have to say that I can only hear the difference between ceramic discs and upgrades . Mylar vs polyester vs polystyrene vs POI differences are beyond my ears thesedays .
 

modavis99

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Here are pics of the control cavity of my 2021 Murphy Lab R9
4DC503D3-5A9C-40AB-891E-D1451F16E370.jpeg
AB1F8488-BA4D-412D-819F-4C461044D8B5.jpeg
 

TM1

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The USA "LP Standard 50's" guitars are Not done at the Custom Shop. Until 2 years ago the caps were faux Bees. But only Custom gets/uses the correct PIO Bee's. The USA Division does things differently than Custom. They are two different divisions of Gibson so if one section does things one way, the other does things a different way. Even though both make Les Pauls' the USA makes them very differently than Custom; different wood requirements, different finish materials & different electronics. You shouldn't expect the USA Division to build them like the Custom Shop builds them. Two separate entities!!
 

Red Planet

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The USA "LP Standard 50's" guitars are Not done at the Custom Shop. Until 2 years ago the caps were faux Bees. But only Custom gets/uses the correct PIO Bee's. The USA Division does things differently than Custom. They are two different divisions of Gibson so if one section does things one way, the other does things a different way. Even though both make Les Pauls' the USA makes them very differently than Custom; different wood requirements, different finish materials & different electronics. You shouldn't expect the USA Division to build them like the Custom Shop builds them. Two separate entities!!


I think you read one of my posts but not others. I own one of each neither came with correct wiring or caps. In my brain I cant see how it would be cost prohibitive to perform 50s wiring on either standard production runs or Custom Shop guitars. Either way I'm certainly not confusing Custom Shop guitars and regular production guitars.
 

ARandall

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Up until 2003 the RI guitar line was more about the look. After the Braz run things kinda got serious in terms of a continual spec improvement (ever the rampant greedy sod he was, HJ was going to milk the upselling for as long as humanly possible).
So its sort of pointless looking at (and judging) an old guitar where today's obsessive internet based quest for accuracy was not part of the deal.
All of the aftermarket PAF clone decoding and other work around specifics of burst construction seemed to take off around 2008 in earnest.

And the USA line deliberately doesn't make guitars accurate to their decade, they become a nod to the iconic model instead. Itwould be the height of marketing and business stupidity simply to make a cheaper version of the expensive line.
The Classic was downgraded in the mid 90s precisely to avoid this mistake.
 

Adinol

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I agree with that though that has nothing to do with with the discusion. We buy these guitars as they are supposed to be an accurate reproduction of the originals only to find out the easiest part was not accurate at all.

Fair enough.

But there is still a part that I can't understand.

For example, the vintage enthusiasts that collect old tube radios don't worry about the caps being "accurate", so when tube radios are being recapped, it is desirable that the replacement caps should be of the newer technology. They perform better, last longer, they are more to spec, etc...

I still don't understand why vintage guitar enthusiasts are so fond of accurate vintage caps. They are inferior in every way. Waht is it about a true vintage cap that would make it more desirable? Especially because there can't possibly be such thing as a true vintage cap. Even if we have an actual NOS vintage cap, that cap has aged and deteriorated and we can't possibly know how it performed, or "sounded" when it was actually new. We can't even tell from the old recordings, as recordings never capture the actual true tone.
 

Red Planet

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Up until 2003 the RI guitar line was more about the look. After the Braz run things kinda got serious in terms of a continual spec improvement (ever the rampant greedy sod he was, HJ was going to milk the upselling for as long as humanly possible).
So its sort of pointless looking at (and judging) an old guitar where today's obsessive internet based quest for accuracy was not part of the deal.
All of the aftermarket PAF clone decoding and other work around specifics of burst construction seemed to take off around 2008 in earnest.

And the USA line deliberately doesn't make guitars accurate to their decade, they become a nod to the iconic model instead. Itwould be the height of marketing and business stupidity simply to make a cheaper version of the expensive line.
The Classic was downgraded in the mid 90s precisely to avoid this mistake.

I do realize my recent guitar purchase is an much older version of what they are now doing and things have changed. I was simply very surprised to see no 50s wiring in many R8s and the same level of components in the production models as the custom models.
 

Red Planet

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Fair enough.

But there is still a part that I can't understand.

For example, the vintage enthusiasts that collect old tube radios don't worry about the caps being "accurate", so when tube radios are being recapped, it is desirable that the replacement caps should be of the newer technology. They perform better, last longer, they are more to spec, etc...

I still don't understand why vintage guitar enthusiasts are so fond of accurate vintage caps. They are inferior in every way. Waht is it about a true vintage cap that would make it more desirable? Especially because there can't possibly be such thing as a true vintage cap. Even if we have an actual NOS vintage cap, that cap has aged and deteriorated and we can't possibly know how it performed, or "sounded" when it was actually new. We can't even tell from the old recordings, as recordings never capture the actual true tone.

I'm not hung up on vintage accuracy I'm concentrating using this guitar for gigs. I'm hung up on functionality.
 
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Red Planet

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BTW everyone I'm not poo pooing Gibson, I love these things. Just more surprised than anything. It appears there is a certain commonality in the pots/caps combination that is yielding a specific tone and function across these models. I really cant quite put my finger on it. I do know after I replaced absolutely everything in the Standard that specific recipe turned into something totally different.

By replacing the caps and rewiring to 50s I'm hoping to get an improved function with the controls, fingers crossed.
 
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