i'm no paint expert (wrinkle question)

jeff.longino

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So as the title says, i'm not a paint expert.
My few builds have all been hand rubbed trans tint and then a clear lacquer.

Current build is paint...Krylon ColoxMAXX rattle to be specific.

It was going well but on the 4th and i thought final coat a section decided to wrinkle on me.
I let it dry, sanded it back a bit (not to wood just to get the 3d wrinkle to lay back), wiped clean with alcohol, and tried again.
And alas that same spot just winkled again.

I'm at a loss as to both the cause and more importantly to a solution.

Any hints/suggests are very very welcome.
 

Brek

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Possible it’s a surface containment? And not something your doing wrong, struck me could be something like the cloth used to wipe of any dust from previous coats could have had a silicon based polish on it? Or something like that?
 

jeff.longino

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I thought that but this time I was careful and after sanding it back used a clean wipe and alcohol to clean it. I mean I guess there could still be a remnant. If this thread produces no ideas i'm going to reluctantly sand back to the wood and start over:(
 

ARandall

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Well, I fear that sanding back to wood might be the only cure......as you've done the typical intermediate level fixes already without success.
Is it something that sanding and buffing will remove....as in the levelling aspect of the buff out will make it look just fine....or does the wrinkle affect colour or lower coats so you will always see it?

I've had one or two oddities like that in finishing.....and one of late. A fender style neck where certain patches would come out with white fluffy looking contamination after a coat. You'd do a little sanding to remove it, wipe on some turps to try and break down any possible contaminant, and then coat again. And the white would spread!! - as in it would be a bigger issue than before you did the remedy.
I was lucky that I could remove the visible aspect in sanding then buffing.....otherwise it would have been finish removal and re-do.
 

jeff.longino

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Being my first painted guitar I do not have a lot of intuition to know what can ultimately be buffed out and what is just a problem.

As much as it annoys me, I do have a few minor issues from the surface having a few pits I missed in the initial sand. I think I'm going to take the pill now and just same back to see if I can solve both issues.

Building I enjoy.....finishing not so much.
 

jeff.longino

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Well i decided if I was to the point of considering sanding back to wood I might as well try to buff it out.
I think it worked out ok. The $64,000 question is will the clear coat go on over it ok....but i'm going to give that a shot.
 

Lester

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Careful use of paper to remove protrusion defects and then working your way up the grades can fix issues with that. The one consideration is that you can fix paint that's too high, but you can't fix paint that's too low.

If were talking drip level defects in the wrinkle, I'd be very lightly using 240, very carefully, just on the high spots using the paper on my index finger to narrow the contact area. Maybe just a couple strokes to flatten them. Then very lightly wth 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000. You can use the higher grades on the entire body. Some guys use a block... I prefer just wrapping the paper on my fingers and lightly stroking... not so much "sanding".

Don't sand near edges. When you're all done with the primary sanding, use 1500 VERY lightly on edges, then 2000. A coupe strokes. The only way I'd use a lower grade on an edge would be if there was a drip-like defect... I'd be very careful.. and I'd be prepared to have to touch it up if I went through.
 

jeff.longino

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That is roughly what I did though I started at 1000 and went through 3000.
I may be salvageable at tis point.

After this adventure it looks pretty good with only a few minor (?) areas of orange peel. Will minor orang peel work itself out once clear is applied and buffed?
 

jkes01

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What did you use for sealer? Paint and primer in one?
 

Lester

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That is roughly what I did though I started at 1000 and went through 3000.
I may be salvageable at tis point.

After this adventure it looks pretty good with only a few minor (?) areas of orange peel. Will minor orang peel work itself out once clear is applied and buffed?
I think that sealing orange peel under clear just gives you glossy orange peel. The surface may be smooth, but the orange peel is still there. But, you can carefully sand out the highs of orange peel, then go back through the grades of paper.

Keep in mind that cars sometimes have orange peel out of the factory, The clear over it lessens how noticeable it is. Some people see it, some don't. I suspect your guitar will be the same if you leave it and clear. Less noticeable but there for those who care about seeing such things.
 

jeff.longino

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What did you use for sealer? Paint and primer in one?

Yes. paint/primer in one. If doing it again I would look at what sealer options there are. And I'd also sand a bit better. I have a birds eye maple cap that originally I was going to stain but the stain was just not doing it for me so I moved to paint. But that birds eye is odd in that the grain can have little pits. I think when I took the stain off with the planer I did not sand enough again to get those little pits out. They are not terrible and the paint layers and sanding has gotten most of them but they are there. The other issue is the core is pine, maple top and back but pine core. The end grain on that pine was hard to get to disappear behind the paint....I think a sealer could have helped there.
 

jeff.longino

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I think that sealing orange peel under clear just gives you glossy orange peel.
That is my fear. I may sand it a bit more before I get to clear.

All that said this is more of a prototype guitar than a show piece....I just want to to look presentable....not magical:)
Doing a b-bender so really i'm just ready to string it up and try it:)
 

jkes01

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Not a fan of the combo spray, maybe good for lawn furniture, not so sure about guitars. Yes, clear will only magnify imperfections. Solid color or metallic?
 

jeff.longino

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Solid.....they have a blue that is real close to the fender 50s blue. And yes I'm sure the combo spray is not an awesome approach....more of a short term solution after I didn't like the dye on this one. I just can't do reranch rattle prices. What options are there for a reasonable DIY paint?
 
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moreles

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I'm a broken record on surface prep. It always pays to be thorough and patient, and you're always punished (at least I am) for any oversight or shortcut. You should never count on a clearcoat to fix anything wrong in the existing surface. Quite the reverse: it will highlight flaws. I'm guessing that the combination of inadequate surface prep, contaminated undercoats, and, possibly, the paint itself contributed to the poor result. I have used more household grade paints on occasions, notably when doing something crazy on a pedal, and I do often find them deficient, period, as the ingredients and proportions are often compromised for cost and do not perform well as an instrument finish. Some paints are rerally just pretty cruddy paint. Reranch and StewMac stuff is signficantly more expensive, but the cost increase is minimal relative to the value of performance in use, and an excellent outcome. I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties.
 

Lester

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You can buy lacquer, it's much more forgiving. Each coat will melt in to the previous and it tends to self level. Major errors need correction, but it's easy to get it smooth and then continue with more coats and/or then polish back to shine. It's also fast drying.

These days it's getting harder to find and when you do, the colors are usually limited. Automotive chains usually have some generic versions.

In days gone buy, automotive touch up spray paint was always lacquer, regardless of what type the original paint was. Short of the custom mix paints in a rattle can you can custom order, I think it's still true. If so, it would give you a huge color selection.
 
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jeff.longino

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I was looking at straight clear lacquer at the store today, I’d have to invest in some sort of spray gun but I’d probably be willing. My dad may even have a workable one from some auto work years ago.I know with trans tint dye you can do some nice things with lacquer, what about when you want solid colors? Like this one I’m doing now is that creamy blue fender color you see on 50s guitars. Are there products in the same vein as trans tint but for solid colors?
 

LtDave32

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I was looking at straight clear lacquer at the store today, I’d have to invest in some sort of spray gun but I’d probably be willing. My dad may even have a workable one from some auto work years ago.I know with trans tint dye you can do some nice things with lacquer, what about when you want solid colors? Like this one I’m doing now is that creamy blue fender color you see on 50s guitars. Are there products in the same vein as trans tint but for solid colors?
Yes. You can use Color Tone pigments to give opaque colors to clear lacquer:

Color Tone

You can also get that product from Rockler.

The possibilities are endless. You can use the white as a base and use the trans-tint to make the opaque white any shade you want.

If you want the classic Fender Dakota red, use the Color Tone red. And you can make it lighter or darker by adding some white base to it or the darker colors.

A mixture of the white, some trans-tint yellow, brown and green is how I come up with the limed mahogany TV yellow.

You can mix it strong, or you can mix it weaker so it sprays slightly see through with just a few coats, and get that classic Fender "grain bleed" showing through.

I have a ton of Color-tone pigments and the clear tints as well. That's half the fun of lacquer; you can mix just about any dang thing.

Stew mac sells their clear dyes as "Color Tone". Rockler sells the same MFG as "Trans Tint", and the opaque pigments as "Color Tone", but it's all the same company.
 

jeff.longino

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Man....i see another angle on this build thing emerging. For the base lacquer are the products on the shelf at the big box fine (i.e. lacquer is lacquer) or do i need to look for some specific brand/type of lacquer for the base?
 

Lester

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There are MANY different types of lacquer mixes now... composition varies tremendously... especially in a pro-product that is required to meet current VOS specs. I would definitely try to stick within one product line to avoid compatibility issues.

As for base coats... in the old days we'd spray a metallic base coat like silver or gold over the primer. Then we'd use a translucent lacquer on top. Obviously that isn't needed for non-metallic solids. Some guys claimed that it reflected back more light even with a solid top coat. Not sure I bought that but it was common to do.

Red, Blue, Lime Green, White, Black, Gold, Clear in rattle cans. Won't save you any money over bulk paint ... but if you have to buy a gun/setup to do painting it might: https://www.autozone.com/paint-and-body/lacquer-paint?filterByKeyWord=lacquer

Auto paint supply in rattle cans, any color you want. I think it's all lacquer, but you could ask them: https://www.automotivetouchup.com/spray_paint.asp
 
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