Ideal rate of twist (MLP firearms and shooting thread)

[pnuggett]

I think police-trade-ins will go through the roof.

Whether the suit has merit or not, no department is going to want to be associated with the "gun that just goes off".




Meanwhile (@edro will like this joke).... French military units are beginning to issue P320's to their troops.


So when the troops throw up their arms in surrender, and drop their guns, at least the gun will keep fighting!

Users[edit]​

Country	Organization/Notes	Model	Reference
Australia:	Australian Defence Force: In 2022, the P320 XCarry Pro was selected to replace the Browning Hi-Power.	P320 XCarry	[46]
Bolivia	Cuerpo de Policía Nacional (National Police Corps)	P320	[47]
Brazil:	Civil Police of Ceará State Military Police of Ceará State	P320	[48][49][50]
Military Police of Goiás State	P320	[51]
Canada	Canadian Armed Forces: Procured for Canadian Special Operations Forces Command in 2019. Continued introduction throughout 2022 for Canadian Special Forces. On 7 October 2022, it was announced that the P320 was selected to replace the Browning Hi-Power as the new regular force service pistol. It will be designated the C22 in Canadian service.	P320 C22	[52][53]
Costa Rica	Public Force of Costa Rica: Adopting P320 9mm as national service handgun.	P320	[54]
Denmark	Ministry of Defense: P320 XCarry selected as standard issue sidearm. Deliveries set to be completed by the end of 2019.	P320	[55][56][57]
France:	French National Railway Company Security: replacing the Ruger SP101 revolver.[58]	P320	[58]
Wasquehal Municipal Police	P320	[59]
Mexico:	National Guard of Mexico: Placed order of 50,000 P320 9mm pistols in April 2020	P320 9mm	[60]
Norway:	Norwegian Police Service: Adopted the P320XCarry in 2019, replacing the SIG Sauer P226 and Heckler & Koch P30.	P320 XCarry	[61]
Spain	Grupo Especial de Operaciones: the police tactical unit of Spain's National Police Corps currently adoption P320 Pro 9mm handguns.	P320	[62]
Switzerland	St. Gallen Police	P320	[63]
Thailand	Royal Thai Police: purchased 152,468 SIG Sauer P320 pistols in December 2017	P320
Ukraine	Armed Forces of Ukraine	P320 M18	[64]
United Kingdom	West Midlands Police: The P320 replaces the P229 9mm.	P320 9mm	[65]
United States	United States Armed Forces: On 19 January 2017, the P320 was chosen to replace the Beretta M9 as the United States Armed Forces' main service pistol in response to the request for a Modular Handgun System (MHS).	M17 M18	[9]
United States Department of Veterans Affairs Police: the P320 replaces the SIG Sauer P229R DAK 9mm.	P320 9mm	[66]
United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement	P320 9mm	[67]
United States National Park Service	P320 9mm
Braintree, Massachusetts Police Department	P320 .45ACP	[68]
Cambridge, Massachusetts Police Department	P320	[69]
Somerville, Massachusetts Police Department	P320	[70]
Chicago Police Department	P320	[71]
Dallas Police Department	P320	[72]
Hawaii Department of Public Safety	P320	[73]
Oklahoma Highway Patrol	P320	[74]
Pasco County Sheriff's Office	P320	[75]
Texas Department of Public Safety	P320	[76]
North Miami, Florida Police Department	P320
Virginia State Police	P320	[77]
Ventura County, California Sheriff's Office	P320	[78]
Manchester, New Hampshire Police Department	P320	[79]
Concord, New Hampshire Police Department: the P320 replaces the SIG Sauer P229R .45ACP.	P320 9mm	[80]
Portsmouth, New Hampshire Police Department	P320	[81]
Newington, New Hampshire Police Department	P320	[82]
Tampa, Florida Police Department: the P320 replaces the Smith & Wesson M&P .40S&W.	P320	[83]
Lloyd Harbor, New York Police Department	P320	[84]
Delaware State Police	P320	[85]
Milwaukee Police Department	P320	[86]
Sumnter, South Carolina Police Department	P320	[87]
Newark, Delaware Police Department	P320	[88]
Miami Beach, Florida Police Department: the P320 XCarry was chosen as the department's new duty sidearm in 2021, replacing the Smith & Wesson M&P .40S&W.	P320 XCarry 9mm	[89]
Bay Area Rapid Transit Police Department	P320 9mm	[90]
Nevada Highway Patrol	P320 9mm	[91]
Virginia Division of Capitol Police	P320 9mm	[92]
Ames, Iowa Police Department	P320	[93]
Puerto Rico Police	P320 9mm	[94]

 

[Skeletor]

Another question for you folks...
Legal things changing up here in the great white north has me pondering a bit of a change in direction to my involvement in the sport. Kind of mulling over trying my hand at longer range target shooting (graduating away from blasting away at a target 50 yards away with an old SKS)

So my question - what cartridge/caliber would you recommend for someone starting from scratch?

Some background considerations...
I have zero expectations for any extreme distance stuff given I was never a great shooter to begin with and age is making that even worse. So maybe as a "starting point" I'd probably be happy if I could be somewhat consistent at say 500 yards (random distance I pulled out of the air)
Second (and possibly more important) is budget... Currently I have no appetite for reloading (that could change) and I'd be a little anxious dropping wads of cash with every trigger pull so looking for a balance between cost and performance (tip the scales toward low cost).

Depending on cartridge type... my next question (for another day) would be to suggest an appropriate rifle and optics - I'd be looking for a "non scary looking" bolt action (maybe future proof it by specifying single shot?) - reasonably priced again as I'd go down the "GAS" path later (I'm kind of the opposite of SteveC with his buy once cry once philosophy - I tend to buy cheap, suffer, upgrade and end up spending way more than I should have if i'd listened to Steve)

So - what are your thoughts?

 

[KSG_Standard]

.308 win. in a bolt action. Common ammo, lot's of choices in bullets and loads by a lot of different manufactures, accurate and hard hitting, easy to shoot. Remington 700, Ruger M77, Winchester Mod. 7, Browning A Bolt, lots of good rifles that aren't too expensive. Top it with a quality scope and you can use it for damn near anything.

I'm a sucker for Leupold scopes, I've got one on all my long guns but one and they've never failed in the field.

 

[Jeremiah]

If you really want it for just plinking and not hunting, you could just get a .22 rifle. Ammo is crazy cheap.

If you wanted to share ammo between your pistol (and assuming you've got a 9mm pistol), could switch the above to 9mm.

Next best is what I did with my latest build. .556, 18 inches. I had read 20 inches was the optimal length for .556 but Noveske doesn't make a 20 inch barrel in that calibre. I put an Eotech Vudu 1-6 but honestly wish I held out for the 1-10. I'm only shooting at 50 yards or so and I put that thing on 6 every time, it is the perfect size for what I'm doing. I say I wish I held out in case I want to make the jump like you're doing, that 7 - 10 magnification would come in handy for that.

 

[Skeletor]

I've got a .22 (a 10/22) - so looking for a bit more range but...
Great White North (Canada) so likely that most of Jeremiah's build is out (along with the pistol considerations). Used market is fairly limited as well.
although - I think my neighbor has a Sako (?) in 270 with a Leupold scope... maybe I could talk him into selling that to me.

 

[KSG_Standard]

I've got a .22 (a 10/22) - so looking for a bit more range but...
Great White North (Canada) so likely that most of Jeremiah's build is out (along with the pistol considerations). Used market is fairly limited as well.
although - I think my neighbor has a Sako (?) in 270 with a Leupold scope... maybe I could talk him into selling that to me.

Sako makes a fine rifle and .270 is an excellent round. Fairly mild recoil, pretty good range...less common ammo in many places. It's a common round down here for white tail.

 

[edro]

Starting from scratch and you said you had a .22LR 10/22, I would shoot it until printing tight is routine.... I'd suggest starting at 25yrd.... with 25yd increments out to 100yds until you can print at each distance..... You will know a LOT more about trajectory then.... You will also have shot so much that there should be no flinch....AND, and that is a B I G and, you won't have the anticipation.... Feeling the trigger is a big one too.... Enough rounds out of the 10/22 and you will feel any variation in the trigger pull.... You'll KNOW where the break is....you'll feel it....

Never start with a substantial centerfire.... Get past the flinch first.....

Just my $.02....and I don't give change.... Flinch/anticipation is the enemy.... That will bite you more than anything.....

 

[pinefd]

...Just how in the stem winding hell can anything release without pull-trig?...

Perhaps Alec Baldwin could shed some light on this mystery?





Frank

 

[edro]

Perhaps Alec Baldwin could shed some light on this mystery?





Frank

Nah. If that dumb bastard cannot figure out a SAA, he's not only dumb but stupid....and a damn liar anyway....

 

[Skeletor]

Starting from scratch and you said you had a .22LR 10/22, I would shoot it until printing tight is routine.... I'd suggest starting at 25yrd.... with 25yd increments out to 100yds until you can print at each distance..... You will know a LOT more about trajectory then.... You will also have shot so much that there should be no flinch....AND, and that is a B I G and, you won't have the anticipation.... Feeling the trigger is a big one too.... Enough rounds out of the 10/22 and you will feel any variation in the trigger pull.... You'll KNOW where the break is....you'll feel it....

Never start with a substantial centerfire.... Get past the flinch first.....

Just my $.02....and I don't give change.... Flinch/anticipation is the enemy.... That will bite you more than anything.....

Starting from scratch maybe wasn't entirely accurate. Maybe more accurately - starting from scratch in the center fire rifle realm from an equipment perspective. I've got a small pile of rimfire rifles as well as an SKS. likely getting rid of the SKS and thinking of replacing it with something with optics to reach out a bit further that the 22s are capable of. Thinking it might be a bit of a "zen thing" focusing on improving at a distance?
(so I currently have no piles of ammo or spare parts or whatever to influence my equipment/caliber choice based on compatibility with my current stuff)

 

[Kormak]

I've got a .22 (a 10/22) - so looking for a bit more range but...
Great White North (Canada) so likely that most of Jeremiah's build is out (along with the pistol considerations). Used market is fairly limited as well.
although - I think my neighbor has a Sako (?) in 270 with a Leupold scope... maybe I could talk him into selling that to me.

If you can - you won't be dissapointed, Sako is really nice! .270 might be rough to find though, so keep that in mind
P.S few days after this post I saw Sako 270 on sale. Coincidence?

 

[TheX]

Man, KB facing this took balls, but the science was worth it. I know it's 9 months old and may have been addressed, but DAYUMMMM.

 

[TheX]

And the same round in a Barrett.

 

[Roberteaux]

.308 win. in a bolt action. Common ammo, lot's of choices in bullets and loads by a lot of different manufactures, accurate and hard hitting, easy to shoot.

This.

Unless you're a reloader, you probably should stay with that which is currently to be found in abundance. Because .308 Win is really just a souped-up version of 7.62 x 51mm NATO, you will find both .308 Win and the NATO shit (same brass, just loaded to different pressure specs) in abundance.

Over the last few years-- for reasons nobody can quite comprehend-- firearms sales went through the roof in the US. Many, many millions of new firearms sold in the US... a record number, if ATF is to be believed.

BUT, per usual, everybody wanted "military" shit, and while it has been quite a while since I've stepped foot into an actual gun shop, I go to gun shows quite often and have seen that at this point, it's more difficult to acquire factory carts for shit that's not being used by the military.

Things may have changed somewhat over the last year or so, but last time I checked, about ALL any of the major gun shops around here had for sale was various versions of 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO, and 7.62 x 39mm shit like what your SKS (and most AK's) are using. You would be SOL if you went to that shop looking for even very common shit such as .30-30.

For handguns, it's like all they stocked was .45 ACP, 9mmP, and .22LR... when you could get some at all.

I'm a reloader. I don't reload (or produce) rimfire carts 'cause I don't have the means, and until very recently I didn't reload 7.62 x 39mm, preferring cheap-ass, steel-cased, Berdan-primed, non-reloadable foreign shit. But then I decided to at least be set up to reload the same cart in brass, just to do something different.

But even reloading 7.62 x 39mm got to be a pain in the ass as existing stocks of the 123-grain, .310 bullets you need became hard to get. I did load up some with .308 projectiles of a similar weight... but the results were hysterically ineffective-- as in, truly laughable.

I mean, even I had to laugh.

I think that one of the funniest parts of that particular experiment came when I decided to coat some .308's with molybdenum disulfide, just to see if the additional slickness provided by the coating would straighten anything out...

I didn't think it would make much of a difference-- but I was wrong about that. It sure did make a difference-- a really big, and really terrible difference!

When I loaded some 125-grain .308's after treatment, the accuracy (which was sub-par when compared to firing 7.62 x 39mm with actual .310 bullets even without the molybdenum disulfide) got to be really crazy... with the moly-coated .308 projectiles, I ended up with bullets keyholing through the target at 25m, and shooting about a 10" "group"...

Meanwhile, the assholes at Hornady (who previously was the one US mass-producer of .310" bullets for AK, SKS, and etc.) decided to stop producing the FMJ military bullet, in favor of the production of very pricey "varmint bullets" of a more sophisticated structure-- and they wanted about 4 times as much per bullet as previously.

Which, I thought, was dopey. I mean, sure-- you can for sure nail some types of vermin with 7.62 x 39mm ammo, if they're close enough-- but ain't nobody in the world who takes long shots at small, very wily varmints who favors the type. It's a military cart, was originally designed with the idea of short range, full-auto fire in closer-range military engagements by massed troops.

Because of the shitty aspect ratio and really low ballistic coefficient of the original projectile (and the weapons originally designed to fire them), 7.62 x 39mm was never meant to be a hair-splitting, accurate type of bullet. You want to hit a rock chuck at about 350m? You do NOT bring something firing 7.62 x 39mm. Even bolt action rifles produced as an "acccurized platform" for these spiffy new bullets can't coax them into being as accurate as the type of carts that true long-range, small target guys would use.

So I just sneered at Hornady, Nosler, and some of the others who started producing really pricey, complexly-layered bullets to be fired out of shit like AK rifles. They sold them with cheeseball names such as "Varmageddon" and etc.

Looks like a couple of manufacturers decided to swoop in and produce those .310's that Hornady discontinued. They sold like hotcakes-- to the point that Hornady recently announced that they're bringing back the ol' military pill that AK's were originally designed to fire after all.

Which figures. I mean, when somebody says "varmint rifle" or "long range shooter", the very last cart I'd come up with would be something like 7.62 X 39mm Soviet.

***************
​

But everywhere I go, I see scads of 7.62 x 51mm NATO. The shit has been in military use since the 50's, and there's a lot of it out there.

You're not going to find different bullet weights in the NATO shit... it's all standardized weight. BUT, if you've got a buddy who reloads, you'll find that of all the projectiles out there, .308 comes in the widest variety of weights... from 90-grain super-stingers to 200-grain (and heavier!) bulldozer bullets, you can find it in .308.

Also remember: the NATO shit is somewhat less powerful (in terms of chamber pressure) than true .308 Winchester. So you do want a real .308 chamber for your rifle, as the NATO stuff is easier on your rifle chamber, and you can fire both types.

It is very typical to get (at the very least) 6 - 8 thousand rounds out of a .308 rifle before the chamber is eroded and the barrel needs to be replaced.

Compare that to the mere 1,000 (or so) rounds you can fire before you fry a chamber the way .300 Win Mag, .270 Win, or 6mm Creedmoor will do. Also, all "short magnum" carts are chamber-eaters too... which is why they're much better for hunters than as a military cartridge.

If you simply gotta have something that says "Creedmoor", go for the 6.5mm version. There's less of an "overbore" coefficient going with the 6.5 Creedmoor than the 6mm version, and so the larger version's barrel and chamber lasts about twice as long (or better) than the 6mm version.

Best luck!

--R

​

 

[SteveC]

I always love learning shit like that. It does not apply to my applications, but, it is interesting as hell. And, moreover it makes me feel less stupid.

@Roberteaux - great read, as always.



My .02 on the matter is, when trying to decide something, spend more time than money first!

 

[BlankinLoud]

This.

Unless you're a reloader, you probably should stay with that which is currently to be found in abundance. Because .308 Win is really just a souped-up version of 7.62 x 51mm NATO, you will find both .308 Win and the NATO shit (same brass, just loaded to different pressure specs) in abundance.

Over the last few years-- for reasons nobody can quite comprehend-- firearms sales went through the roof in the US. Many, many millions of new firearms sold in the US... a record number, if ATF is to be believed.

BUT, per usual, everybody wanted "military" shit, and while it has been quite a while since I've stepped foot into an actual gun shop, I go to gun shows quite often and have seen that at this point, it's more difficult to acquire factory carts for shit that's not being used by the military.

Things may have changed somewhat over the last year or so, but last time I checked, about ALL any of the major gun shops around here had for sale was various versions of 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO, and 7.62 x 39mm shit like what your SKS (and most AK's) are using. You would be SOL if you went to that shop looking for even very common shit such as .30-30.

For handguns, it's like all they stocked was .45 ACP, 9mmP, and .22LR... when you could get some at all.

I'm a reloader. I don't reload (or produce) rimfire carts 'cause I don't have the means, and until very recently I didn't reload 7.62 x 39mm, preferring cheap-ass, steel-cased, Berdan-primed, non-reloadable foreign shit. But then I decided to at least be set up to reload the same cart in brass, just to do something different.

But even reloading 7.62 x 39mm got to be a pain in the ass as existing stocks of the 123-grain, .310 bullets you need became hard to get. I did load up some with .308 projectiles of a similar weight... but the results were hysterically ineffective-- as in, truly laughable.

I mean, even I had to laugh.

I think that one of the funniest parts of that particular experiment came when I decided to coat some .308's with molybdenum disulfide, just to see if the additional slickness provided by the coating would straighten anything out...

I didn't think it would make much of a difference-- but I was wrong about that. It sure did make a difference-- a really big, and really terrible difference!

When I loaded some 125-grain .308's after treatment, the accuracy (which was sub-par when compared to firing 7.62 x 39mm with actual .310 bullets even without the molybdenum disulfide) got to be really crazy... with the moly-coated .308 projectiles, I ended up with bullets keyholing through the target at 25m, and shooting about a 10" "group"...

Meanwhile, the assholes at Hornady (who previously was the one US mass-producer of .310" bullets for AK, SKS, and etc.) decided to stop producing the FMJ military bullet, in favor of the production of very pricey "varmint bullets" of a more sophisticated structure-- and they wanted about 4 times as much per bullet as previously.

Which, I thought, was dopey. I mean, sure-- you can for sure nail some types of vermin with 7.62 x 39mm ammo, if they're close enough-- but ain't nobody in the world who takes long shots at small, very wily varmints who favors the type. It's a military cart, was originally designed with the idea of short range, full-auto fire in closer-range military engagements by massed troops.

Because of the shitty aspect ratio and really low ballistic coefficient of the original projectile (and the weapons originally designed to fire them), 7.62 x 39mm was never meant to be a hair-splitting, accurate type of bullet. You want to hit a rock chuck at about 350m? You do NOT bring something firing 7.62 x 39mm. Even bolt action rifles produced as an "acccurized platform" for these spiffy new bullets can't coax them into being as accurate as the type of carts that true long-range, small target guys would use.

So I just sneered at Hornady, Nosler, and some of the others who started producing really pricey, complexly-layered bullets to be fired out of shit like AK rifles. They sold them with cheeseball names such as "Varmageddon" and etc.

Looks like a couple of manufacturers decided to swoop in and produce those .310's that Hornady discontinued. They sold like hotcakes-- to the point that Hornady recently announced that they're bringing back the ol' military pill that AK's were originally designed to fire after all.

Which figures. I mean, when somebody says "varmint rifle" or "long range shooter", the very last cart I'd come up with would be something like 7.62 X 39mm Soviet.

***************
​

But everywhere I go, I see scads of 7.62 x 51mm NATO. The shit has been in military use since the 50's, and there's a lot of it out there.

You're not going to find different bullet weights in the NATO shit... it's all standardized weight. BUT, if you've got a buddy who reloads, you'll find that of all the projectiles out there, .308 comes in the widest variety of weights... from 90-grain super-stingers to 200-grain (and heavier!) bulldozer bullets, you can find it in .308.

Also remember: the NATO shit is somewhat less powerful (in terms of chamber pressure) than true .308 Winchester. So you do want a real .308 chamber for your rifle, as the NATO stuff is easier on your rifle chamber, and you can fire both types.

It is very typical to get (at the very least) 6 - 8 thousand rounds out of a .308 rifle before the chamber is eroded and the barrel needs to be replaced.

Compare that to the mere 1,000 (or so) rounds you can fire before you fry a chamber the way .300 Win Mag, .270 Win, or 6mm Creedmoor will do. Also, all "short magnum" carts are chamber-eaters too... which is why they're much better for hunters than as a military cartridge.

If you simply gotta have something that says "Creedmoor", go for the 6.5mm version. There's less of an "overbore" coefficient going with the 6.5 Creedmoor than the 6mm version, and so the larger version's barrel and chamber lasts about twice as long (or better) than the 6mm version.

Best luck!

--R

​

Given the overbore situation...I'll really be interested in either .338/06 or 338/08 if I figure out how to get into handloading. (Biggest obstacle involves figuring out where I can fit a dedicated reloading/gunsmithing workbench into my cottage.)

My other sudden interest in handloading is because a couple Charter .44 special Bulldogs have suddenly appeared at LGS'S. The only reason I haven't bought one of those yet is "Where the fuck do I find .44special ammunition."

 

[Roberteaux]

Given the overbore situation...I'll really be interested in either .338/06 or 338/08 if I figure out how to get into handloading. (Biggest obstacle involves figuring out where I can fit a dedicated reloading/gunsmithing workbench into my cottage.)

My other sudden interest in handloading is because a couple Charter .44 special Bulldogs have suddenly appeared at LGS'S. The only reason I haven't bought one of those yet is "Where the fuck do I find .44special ammunition."

Factory ammo could be hard to find, even back when times were good.

But, given that you're up there with the moosies, carnivorous deer, big bears and all, I'd bet that there are lots and lots of .44 Rem Mag carts to be purchased gun shows. You can (of course) also get them from the Internet... use ammoseek and you will for sure find the brass... might be a bit of a markup there, though...

So, what you do if you really *cannot* find .44 S&W Spl. anywhere is to get .44 Rem Mag carts and cut 'em down to .44 Spl.

See, with the exception of the length of the brass, the .44 Spl. cart is identical in every way.

The SAAMI standard for .44 Rem Mag is a length of 1.285"
The SAAMI standard for .44 S&W Spl. is a length of 1.160"

So, what you do is get a case trimmer-- they're not all that expensive, really-- and cut those puppies down to size (that's .125" of metal to remove) and them chamfer and deburr them.

This is easier to do than it might sound, I should say.

But anyway: if you're a reloader, there's your .44 Specials!

--R

 

[BlankinLoud]

@Roberteaux, your recent post convinced me that when I buy a spare AR in the near future, it's going to be chambered in .556 NATO rather than 762x39......probably going to do a longer range build with an AERO lower, 20" heavy barrel, Larue trigger.

@SteveC, I have yet to cry about my purchase of a LaRue trigger....it turned my cheap Radical AR into an intermediate range tack driver.

 

[BlankinLoud]

Factory ammo could be hard to find, even back when times were good.

But, given that you're up there with the moosies, carnivorous deer, big bears and all, I'd bet that there are lots and lots of .44 Rem Mag carts to be purchased gun shows. You can (of course) also get them from the Internet... use ammoseek and you will for sure find the brass... might be a bit of a markup there, though...

So, what you do if you really *cannot* find .44 S&W Spl. anywhere is to get .44 Rem Mag carts and cut 'em down to .44 Spl.

See, with the exception of the length of the brass, the .44 Spl. cart is identical in every way.

The SAAMI standard for .44 Rem Mag is a length of 1.285"
The SAAMI standard for .44 S&W Spl. is a length of 1.160"

So, what you do is get a case trimmer-- they're not all that expensive, really-- and cut those puppies down to size (that's .125" of metal) and them chamfer and deburr them.

This is easier to do than it might sound, I should say.

But anyway: there's your .44 Specials!

--R

"Carnivorous deer," will kick your ass.

If a deer rears up on it's hind legs you are fucked.

Best hope is to curl up into a fetal ball and maybe survive the beating.

 

[THDNUT]

My younger brother has his SWD M11 in the RIA auction which starts 12/10/22.

We'll see how much it sells for. That's a faux suppressor. He paid $400 + sales tax + $200 for the tax stamp for the gun back in 1985.

It has been converted (with a new upper receiver) to a side bolt actuator knob from the original top bolt knob.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/87/1461/swd-m11nine-class-iiinfa-fully-transferable-machine-gun