Ideal rate of twist (MLP firearms and shooting thread)

HardCore Troubadour

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I would really love to read those rules on "printing" etc.
There is no defining terms or language for "printing" or for it to be a violation, that I have seen.

can you post them?

anyone else also?
 

scott1970

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Folks should take all that energy spent on worrying about printing and gear it toward proper gun storage. Saturday night a local moron had THREE handguns stolen from his unlocked truck. No serial numbers were available for any of them. They'll eventually turn up at a gang shooting, but Capt. Stupid will never see them again since we couldn't enter them into NCIC.
 

sonar1

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The problem with “printing” is that someone could claim you were brandishing and call law enforcement.
Since you have a gun on you it adds credibility to their claim.
Open carry laws will protect against such charges. Unless you did pull it out of its holster, waistband, shoulder rig, or Hollywood sleave grappler.
 

HardCore Troubadour

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Not in SC....there is no "brandishing" so that is no concern....it is either "point and present" or nothing....I personally don't believe "brandishing" would hold up for a case of "printing" or your shirt "riding up" etc. etc. The term itself lends to the item being "in the hand".

Bran-dish:
wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.


I promise I do get what everyone is saying, but I have yet to see a "printing" rule attached to a law as dealing with CC.
 
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Roberteaux

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Simply because the word "brandish" doesn't appear in South Carolina's statutes doesn't mean you can't be busted in that state for doing so.

If you'll look at the statute governing such activities, you'll find that in SC Code §16-23-410 that the wording is as follows:

"It is unlawful for a person to present or point at another person a loaded or unloaded firearm."

Notice the "or" in that state statute. This means you don't have to present and point, but that presentation alone will get you busted... and for a felony crime at that.

I didn't dig into case precedent, but I'd imagine that the courts require that the victim swear under oath that he or she was in fear when the weapon was presented for that charge to stick.

But yeah: that's brandishing-- just by another term. Down here we call the same behavior "aggravated assault", and the word "brandish" doesn't appear within our statutes either. But if a person brandished a weapon unlawfully, rest assured: we'd pop that one and take him off to the hoosegow. We just didn't talk about "brandishing" using that specific word. :thumb:

One of the more amusing laws on the books in Florida is F.S.S §790.19, which reads as "Shooting or throwing deadly missiles"...

What we used that one for was assholes throwing rocks and such at cars, other people, houses, or what-have-you. But the first time I ever arrested anybody for that offense, the guy protested, "I didn't fire a missile at that asshole, I just threw a rock at him!"

:laugh2:

It's always best to examine the spirit of a law as written, without attempting to suss that law out by means of pure semantics alone.

I don't know about California, but in Florida nobody is gonna pop for aggravated assault in a case where what we really had was "printing". In fact, when we got somebody who liked to "accidentally" flash his firearm by making damned sure it came popping out from concealment at a strategic moment.. well, we'd do a guy like that by charging him with a county ordinance violation, to wit: "Unlawful Display of a Firearm"...

It was just a fine and a misdemeanor that way. Judge would just fine you if you pleaded nolo... and you didn't get into subsequent hot water as a firearms owner that way.

--R
 
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HardCore Troubadour

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That is my thoughts exactly......and I put the AND instead of the OR by accident, which also goes to my point.

I don't think you can present or point without using your hands, I think that is the true "spirit" of the law, and thus "printing" is not an issue.

matter of fact, I still think you will not find it in a law anywhere....because I think it was made up by holster companies.

But if it is in the law somewhere, I would like to know.

Instead, we'd do a guy like that by charging him with a county ordinance violation, to wit: "Unlawful Display of a Firearm"...
this is where the real deal is IMO.

@Roberteaux would you think that an unlawful display charge would lead to revocation of permit?
 

Roberteaux

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That is my thoughts exactly......and I put the AND instead of the OR by accident, which also goes to my point.

I don't think you can present or point without using your hands, I think that is the true "spirit" of the law, and thus "printing" is not an issue.
I can't speak for S.C., but in Florida you are *not* gonna cop a "brandishing" charge (by any name) without that heater being right in your hand.

matter of fact, I still think you will not find it in a law anywhere....because I think it was made up by holster companies.

But if it is in the law somewhere, I would like to know.
It might be the same in S.C. as it is in Florida... where the most minor of all firearms charges are routinely dealt with by citation of a city or county ordinance violation... and 90% of the time we didn't even stroke the guy for that and instead just gave him a lecture about it while making him adjust things so that his shit was for-sure concealed and gonna stay that way.

There's probably some sort of thing like that going on in S.C., too. Both states are firearms-friendly, and I am having a hard time imagining anybody busting somebody for anything that cheesy (at least in Florida) unless the guy had a big mouth and some shit to offer while we explained our position to him.

It was all the same with weed. The Florida Supreme Court ordered us to stop making arrests for misdemeanor cannabis possession back in 1984... unless the guy was an asshole and gave us a hard time along the way.

Other than that, you never saw us busting for rinky-dink pot charges unless there was also a warrant outstanding for the individual. And even then: half the time we didn't even bust for the pot anyway, so long as the offender was willing to destroy his or her stash while we observed.

Police discretion: it's a wonderful thing! :laugh2:

@Roberteaux would you think that an unlawful display charge would lead to revocation of permit?
I think that any felony charge, anywhere, would have that effect-- yes.

Again, I don't know S.C.'s laws, procedures, or precedents... and can only speak of Florida laws. But down here the only misdemeanor crime that can affect your right to keep and bear arms would be conviction of domestic violence at any level at all. Even the mildest domestic violence bust will cost you your guns in this state.

Also, if somebody successfully gets a judge to issue a restraining order against you, that can affect your firearms rights in this state as well.

But the reality here seems to be that if the cops see you weren't trying to be a douche, they're not gonna hit you hard enough for your CCP or CWP to be affected.

Expect a really nasty lecture, though! :rofl:

--R :p
 

HardCore Troubadour

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Thank you sir......

I thought that you said that "unlawful display" would be a misdemeanor....which is why I asked the revocation question.
 

CB91710

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Not in SC....there is no "brandishing" so that is no concern....it is either "point and present" or nothing....I personally don't believe "brandishing" would hold up for a case of "printing" or your shirt "riding up" etc. etc. The term itself lends to the item being "in the hand".

Bran-dish:
wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.


I promise I do get what everyone is saying, but I have yet to see a "printing" rule attached to a law as dealing with CC.
That is California's definition of "Brandishing" as well.

The problem is if someone "makes" you, and they don't make a scene about it, but instead quietly call the cops and keep you in view until the cops arrive, THEN they make the scene and claim that you threatened them.
There is so much video now that it's getting harder and harder to pull that off inside of a business, but that doesn't keep you out of cuffs or the holding cell until the cops have time to sort things out.

One of the stops (and arrests) on Live PD was a man who allegedly brandished during a "road rage" incident.
His side of the story was that the woman had cut him off, and he held up his phone motioning for her to get off the phone and drive.
He happened to be carrying, and the cops took him in.

But I don't see open carry laws as being a fix for that. If some "Karen" sees a gun and she doesn't think it should be there, nothing stops her from claiming "brandishing"
That is one of several reasons why, even if I lived in an open-carry state, I would still conceal. I might switch to OWB rather than IWB and rely on my coat for cover, but I wouldn't be out wearing shorts and a t-shirt with my stainless Kimber OWB.

The first rule of public display of a firearm is to be the first guy on the phone to the cops. Open carry allows anyone who doesn't like you or your gun to be the first one on the phone and you won't know it until you hear "Freeze!"
 

CB91710

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would you think that an unlawful display charge would lead to revocation of permit?
California, it depends on which of the 58 counties you are permitted by.
Issuance is at the sole discretion of the Sheriff, some have strict "good cause" requirements, and others (like mine) will issue for an intelligently worded "personal protection" statement.
Likewise, some require you to notify a peace officer upon formal contact, some require that you notify the Sheriff if you are ticketed or in an accident.
Being charged with a felony is a prohibiting condition, so yes, that would result in at the very least a suspension of the permit.

But some Sheriffs will refuse to issue or revoke if you have traffic tickets, citing that it shows disregard for the law.
State law is silent other than to say that the applicant must have "Good cause and be of good moral character"
 

scott1970

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This is a riot.

A couple of days ago an auction was wrapping up for a spectacular S&W pre 27 3.5" which turned into a bidding war with a closing price of $6,025.00. Way more than the gun is worth.

I suspected the buyer would pop up on the S&W forum, and he did. Here's the hilarious back story. He wanted this gun in a bad way but kept getting outbid. He said he was carrying on about it at home. Without his knowledge his wife started an auction account and outbid him and everyone else just to surprise him with his dream gun. What a sweet and tragic gesture all at the same time.
 

Pop1655

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I'm with you, I don't want anybody to know I'm carrying.
Agree!

I've only seen one person carrying open, outside of law enforcement officers.
I was gonna say "well you haven't been to Texas lately", then saw who wrote the post.:laugh2:

I see it pretty regularly. I often look around in my head just as a little game wondering how many guns I've got in the dining room at a given time. Granted, opens would be a VERY small percentage of that total number, but it is something we see on a pretty regular basis.

If constitutional carry goes into effect September 1 (all indications are it will), it will be interesting to see how much that percentage changes.
 

scott1970

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I see open carry in Tennessee and Georgia on a fairly regular basis. The common denominator seems to always be the holster. It's almost always a five dollar Uncle Mike's foamy piece of garbage with a fine Old West hang to it.


On July 1st Tennessee's new constitutional carry law goes into effect. No more permits required for adults to tote guns in the state. Even eighteen year old enlisted men will be able to carry.
 

Bownse

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I would really love to read those rules on "printing" etc.
There is no defining terms or language for "printing" or for it to be a violation, that I have seen.

can you post them?

anyone else also?
It may have been a function of the "first wave" of people getting training and them being exceeding cautious with their advice. What I found quickly is this. The "openly discernable" phrasing seems to be where the confusion started.

I could see it "calming" down in the intervening years (and with more fine tuning of the regs) A current class might address is as something more along the lines of, "to avoid hassles from people who panic" instead of actually running afoul of The Fuzz. So, a function of the geneeral public getting past the hyperbole of "blood in the streets" and cleaning up the original regs (that also included having to have your CHL on you at all times even when not carrying... leaving it in your shoe when in the swimming pool was even cautioned against).

But, for further clarification, to anyone ELSE reading this and asking later
1) According to the actual legal definition:
Texas Government Code - Section 411.171. Definitions
(3) "Concealed Handgun" means a handgun, the presence of which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person.

Note "openly discernible " "ordinary observation of a reasonable person" rather than "someone who knows you are a CHL and looking for a bump in your shirt"


2) According to the Texas Department of Public Safety, “‘Concealed’ means that the weapon cannot be visible, and that its presence cannot be discernible through ordinary observation. It is a criminal offense for a license holder to carry a handgun in plain view, or to intentionally fail to conceal the weapon.”

Here's a handy paragraph I keep as my guideline, but it isn't "Legal Advice":
A concealed handgun license holder who displays his or her handgun or otherwise intentionally reveals (or, "Exhibits?" or "unintentionally/accidently fails to conceal?" ... I don't know, I'm no Lawyer)
that he or she is carrying a concealed handgun is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor (TX PC § 46.035[a]).
If the weapon is displayed in a manner intended to cause alarm, the license holder is also guilty of a Class B misdemeanor (TX PC §42.01[a][8]),
unless the incident takes place on school property, in which case the license holder is guilty of a third degree felony (TX EDC §37.125[a]),
which could be enhanced to a second degree felony, PENAL CODE § 46.11.
 
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LocoTex

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I'm on the smallish end of body size, so when I carry I always start out worrying that my gun is printing. Pretty much anything bigger than a derringer prints on me. But when I go out and don't think about it I rarely spot anyone carrying. If I think about it though, I can usually tell who is carrying. I think most people don't have it on their minds and don't notice unless it's really obvious.
 

HardCore Troubadour

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Bownse, all of that makes perfect sense......my problem is, I do not know what part of that is actual law and what part is put there by the author.

Tex, I actually make a game of trying to spot concealed weapons when I am out....it is not as easy as you would think.

Do you think you can tell because of "printing" or body language?

I guess what I am really trying to point out is there's no real recourse for "printing" or the semblance of a weapon that is fully concealed from view, the idea was put forth to SELL MERCHANDISE.

....and to stop morons.....lol.
 
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Bownse

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Tip 1: Don't stand around with your elbow resting on the pistol butt under your cover garment.

As for "not knowing" law from personal opinion, true. But the LTC laws have changed a lot (more sensible) since the first wave of CCWs were trained. What were cautions back then have been mitigated with clarifications and rewordings of the code.
 


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