Ideal rate of twist (MLP firearms and shooting thread)

45WinMag

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Without providing any commentary on the California court decision itself, everyone should be aware that there will be additional strain on the supply of guns, parts, and ammunition when the stay expires in 30 days (on the Fourth of July). If you want to order something, it might be wise to do so now.
 

CB91710

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Saw this earlier. Great news if it survives challenges. Ninth Circuit ya know....
It'll go to the top, just like the roster, magazines, and shall-issue CCW.
This is the same judge that gave us "freedom week" and more permissive CCW for a short time.

Hopefully SCOTUS will take it... they denied cert on Peruta (CCW). It's helpful if the SCOTUS is presented with split decisions between two of the lower courts, then they are more likely to grant cert.
 

HardCore Troubadour

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My state is going to "permitted open carry"....which really means that at the end of August, anyone with a CWP can carry openly.....also means no more $50 fee to file/renew etc.

I am not really sure how I feel about either part.......I do not think I have a need to "open carry" personally. I would rather people NOT know I am carrying.

I am also realistic in the fact that there's a process and paperwork and people and jobs etc. to make this happen, so I am not really sure how they will do this without a fee???

Don't get me wrong, I do not want to give my $$$ away, but I also know that people "gots to get paid" etc......

Anyone here live in an "open carry" state?
Thoughts either way?
 

LocoTex

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I'm with you, I don't want anybody to know I'm carrying. I've only seen one person carrying open, outside of law enforcement officers.
 

smk506

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I’m primarily a concealed carrier also. Aside from any tactical reason, I don’t like the idea of scaring a bunch of people and like it or not, the sight of a gun just unnerves some folks. :dunno:

With people as oblivious as they are, even a modest effort goes a long way in keeping my peace of mind and letting others have theirs.

That said I prefer the option to OC if for no other reason than to eliminate any legal issues in printing or otherwise making visible a holstered weapon.

I can carry my gp100 owb fall or winter and it’s no biggie if my shirt rides up or I unbutton my jacket inside or whatever.

Same if I go work my buddies farm in the spring/summer, there’s moccasins and all that, it’s nice to have a pistol at hand, but at the same time you don’t really want to be carrying anything in the dead of a tn summer doing farm work, forget about a plastic iwb holster rubbing up on you all day.

So it’s got it upsides beyond just drop leg holsters and Walmart walks, it’s just another option to use if/when it makes sense.
 

HardCore Troubadour

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I agree......
as far as I know, my state law has no language addressing concealed weapon "printing". I would be surprised that anyone could prove that in a court of law.

You should be able to carry however you want on private property (your buddy's farm), no permission needed.
 

Roberteaux

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There are times when open carry in public becomes a very good idea.

But I do believe that the majority of such occasions are somewhat rare in occurrence... and sadly, beyond the guidelines when it comes to what's permissible to speak of in here.

Don't get me wrong folks: nobody has said the first word that any moderator would find objectionable, okay? Instead, what I've suggested above is that there really are times when open carry is a good kind of thing-- and I invite you to privately consider possible scenarios and circumstances in which you'd find the practice to be acceptable and possibly even necessary.

As always, you guys are doing very well and I'm enjoying reading your discussions.

--R :thumb:
 

scott1970

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Without providing any commentary on the California court decision itself, everyone should be aware that there will be additional strain on the supply of guns, parts, and ammunition when the stay expires in 30 days (on the Fourth of July). If you want to order something, it might be wise to do so now.
Will it make it harder for me to get more lever rifles and revolvers?
 

smk506

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I agree......
as far as I know, my state law has no language addressing concealed weapon "printing". I would be surprised that anyone could prove that in a court of law.

You should be able to carry however you want on private property (your buddy's farm), no permission needed.
Yeah, being on the farm itself is no issue. It’s more about being able to just hop in the car and head to the gas station or tool rental or whatever without worrying about it.

His place is out in the weeds a bit so it’s not like walking through a suburban store like where I live, that WOULD raise a few eyebrows, even here in TN.
 

Bownse

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My state is going to "permitted open carry"....which really means that at the end of August, anyone with a CWP can carry openly.....also means no more $50 fee to file/renew etc.

I am not really sure how I feel about either part.......I do not think I have a need to "open carry" personally. I would rather people NOT know I am carrying.

I am also realistic in the fact that there's a process and paperwork and people and jobs etc. to make this happen, so I am not really sure how they will do this without a fee???

Don't get me wrong, I do not want to give my $$$ away, but I also know that people "gots to get paid" etc......

Anyone here live in an "open carry" state?
Thoughts either way?
Ours too. The existing LTC will remain for those who want reciprocity and the easing of NICS delays. Those wanting to carry concealed or open can constitutional carry on 9/1.

And, yes, the original CCW rules could leave you hanging out there if you printed while trying to get something off a bottom shelf or if the wind blew your cover.
 
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HardCore Troubadour

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I would really love to read those rules on "printing" etc.
There is no defining terms or language for "printing" or for it to be a violation, that I have seen.

can you post them?

anyone else also?
 

scott1970

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Folks should take all that energy spent on worrying about printing and gear it toward proper gun storage. Saturday night a local moron had THREE handguns stolen from his unlocked truck. No serial numbers were available for any of them. They'll eventually turn up at a gang shooting, but Capt. Stupid will never see them again since we couldn't enter them into NCIC.
 

sonar1

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The problem with “printing” is that someone could claim you were brandishing and call law enforcement.
Since you have a gun on you it adds credibility to their claim.
Open carry laws will protect against such charges. Unless you did pull it out of its holster, waistband, shoulder rig, or Hollywood sleave grappler.
 

HardCore Troubadour

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Not in SC....there is no "brandishing" so that is no concern....it is either "point and present" or nothing....I personally don't believe "brandishing" would hold up for a case of "printing" or your shirt "riding up" etc. etc. The term itself lends to the item being "in the hand".

Bran-dish:
wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.


I promise I do get what everyone is saying, but I have yet to see a "printing" rule attached to a law as dealing with CC.
 
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Roberteaux

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Simply because the word "brandish" doesn't appear in South Carolina's statutes doesn't mean you can't be busted in that state for doing so.

If you'll look at the statute governing such activities, you'll find that in SC Code §16-23-410 that the wording is as follows:

"It is unlawful for a person to present or point at another person a loaded or unloaded firearm."

Notice the "or" in that state statute. This means you don't have to present and point, but that presentation alone will get you busted... and for a felony crime at that.

I didn't dig into case precedent, but I'd imagine that the courts require that the victim swear under oath that he or she was in fear when the weapon was presented for that charge to stick.

But yeah: that's brandishing-- just by another term. Down here we call the same behavior "aggravated assault", and the word "brandish" doesn't appear within our statutes either. But if a person brandished a weapon unlawfully, rest assured: we'd pop that one and take him off to the hoosegow. We just didn't talk about "brandishing" using that specific word. :thumb:

One of the more amusing laws on the books in Florida is F.S.S §790.19, which reads as "Shooting or throwing deadly missiles"...

What we used that one for was assholes throwing rocks and such at cars, other people, houses, or what-have-you. But the first time I ever arrested anybody for that offense, the guy protested, "I didn't fire a missile at that asshole, I just threw a rock at him!"

:laugh2:

It's always best to examine the spirit of a law as written, without attempting to suss that law out by means of pure semantics alone.

I don't know about California, but in Florida nobody is gonna pop for aggravated assault in a case where what we really had was "printing". In fact, when we got somebody who liked to "accidentally" flash his firearm by making damned sure it came popping out from concealment at a strategic moment.. well, we'd do a guy like that by charging him with a county ordinance violation, to wit: "Unlawful Display of a Firearm"...

It was just a fine and a misdemeanor that way. Judge would just fine you if you pleaded nolo... and you didn't get into subsequent hot water as a firearms owner that way.

--R
 
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HardCore Troubadour

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That is my thoughts exactly......and I put the AND instead of the OR by accident, which also goes to my point.

I don't think you can present or point without using your hands, I think that is the true "spirit" of the law, and thus "printing" is not an issue.

matter of fact, I still think you will not find it in a law anywhere....because I think it was made up by holster companies.

But if it is in the law somewhere, I would like to know.

Instead, we'd do a guy like that by charging him with a county ordinance violation, to wit: "Unlawful Display of a Firearm"...
this is where the real deal is IMO.

@Roberteaux would you think that an unlawful display charge would lead to revocation of permit?
 

Roberteaux

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That is my thoughts exactly......and I put the AND instead of the OR by accident, which also goes to my point.

I don't think you can present or point without using your hands, I think that is the true "spirit" of the law, and thus "printing" is not an issue.
I can't speak for S.C., but in Florida you are *not* gonna cop a "brandishing" charge (by any name) without that heater being right in your hand.

matter of fact, I still think you will not find it in a law anywhere....because I think it was made up by holster companies.

But if it is in the law somewhere, I would like to know.
It might be the same in S.C. as it is in Florida... where the most minor of all firearms charges are routinely dealt with by citation of a city or county ordinance violation... and 90% of the time we didn't even stroke the guy for that and instead just gave him a lecture about it while making him adjust things so that his shit was for-sure concealed and gonna stay that way.

There's probably some sort of thing like that going on in S.C., too. Both states are firearms-friendly, and I am having a hard time imagining anybody busting somebody for anything that cheesy (at least in Florida) unless the guy had a big mouth and some shit to offer while we explained our position to him.

It was all the same with weed. The Florida Supreme Court ordered us to stop making arrests for misdemeanor cannabis possession back in 1984... unless the guy was an asshole and gave us a hard time along the way.

Other than that, you never saw us busting for rinky-dink pot charges unless there was also a warrant outstanding for the individual. And even then: half the time we didn't even bust for the pot anyway, so long as the offender was willing to destroy his or her stash while we observed.

Police discretion: it's a wonderful thing! :laugh2:

@Roberteaux would you think that an unlawful display charge would lead to revocation of permit?
I think that any felony charge, anywhere, would have that effect-- yes.

Again, I don't know S.C.'s laws, procedures, or precedents... and can only speak of Florida laws. But down here the only misdemeanor crime that can affect your right to keep and bear arms would be conviction of domestic violence at any level at all. Even the mildest domestic violence bust will cost you your guns in this state.

Also, if somebody successfully gets a judge to issue a restraining order against you, that can affect your firearms rights in this state as well.

But the reality here seems to be that if the cops see you weren't trying to be a douche, they're not gonna hit you hard enough for your CCP or CWP to be affected.

Expect a really nasty lecture, though! :rofl:

--R :p
 

HardCore Troubadour

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Thank you sir......

I thought that you said that "unlawful display" would be a misdemeanor....which is why I asked the revocation question.
 

CB91710

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Not in SC....there is no "brandishing" so that is no concern....it is either "point and present" or nothing....I personally don't believe "brandishing" would hold up for a case of "printing" or your shirt "riding up" etc. etc. The term itself lends to the item being "in the hand".

Bran-dish:
wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.


I promise I do get what everyone is saying, but I have yet to see a "printing" rule attached to a law as dealing with CC.
That is California's definition of "Brandishing" as well.

The problem is if someone "makes" you, and they don't make a scene about it, but instead quietly call the cops and keep you in view until the cops arrive, THEN they make the scene and claim that you threatened them.
There is so much video now that it's getting harder and harder to pull that off inside of a business, but that doesn't keep you out of cuffs or the holding cell until the cops have time to sort things out.

One of the stops (and arrests) on Live PD was a man who allegedly brandished during a "road rage" incident.
His side of the story was that the woman had cut him off, and he held up his phone motioning for her to get off the phone and drive.
He happened to be carrying, and the cops took him in.

But I don't see open carry laws as being a fix for that. If some "Karen" sees a gun and she doesn't think it should be there, nothing stops her from claiming "brandishing"
That is one of several reasons why, even if I lived in an open-carry state, I would still conceal. I might switch to OWB rather than IWB and rely on my coat for cover, but I wouldn't be out wearing shorts and a t-shirt with my stainless Kimber OWB.

The first rule of public display of a firearm is to be the first guy on the phone to the cops. Open carry allows anyone who doesn't like you or your gun to be the first one on the phone and you won't know it until you hear "Freeze!"
 

CB91710

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would you think that an unlawful display charge would lead to revocation of permit?
California, it depends on which of the 58 counties you are permitted by.
Issuance is at the sole discretion of the Sheriff, some have strict "good cause" requirements, and others (like mine) will issue for an intelligently worded "personal protection" statement.
Likewise, some require you to notify a peace officer upon formal contact, some require that you notify the Sheriff if you are ticketed or in an accident.
Being charged with a felony is a prohibiting condition, so yes, that would result in at the very least a suspension of the permit.

But some Sheriffs will refuse to issue or revoke if you have traffic tickets, citing that it shows disregard for the law.
State law is silent other than to say that the applicant must have "Good cause and be of good moral character"
 


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