Ideal rate of twist (MLP firearms and shooting thread)

smk506

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I have a nylon holster for my p32, it works great for a pocket pistol. I wouldn’t want one for an IWB/OWB though personally. Maybe if it was just for farm/ranch duty where it would be getting filthy and seldom un/reholstered. No heat of the moment type stuff and strictly OWB, would probably be OK.

Now I just need the farm/ranch :D
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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Or, a Serpa Blackhawk.
Yeah, I’ve never seen/heard of a nylon holster getting bunched up in a trigger guard. They’re generally way too stiff to flex that way.

I have actually seen a Serpa-knee though. I’m still kind of a fan, I’ll admit. I’ve used them for 15 years or so, and never had anything near a problem drawing from one. Even under (simulated, at least) stress, I end up with my finger above the trigger well, so I still don’t see how it’s anything but user-error.

I like the concept of a Serpa around the farm (which is really the only place I open carry - well, the farm, and Rural King when I go to get a part, and forget I’m open-carrying). I can drop my pistol in it, hear it click, and tug upward to ensure it’s retained.

Admittedly, the new design that releases with the thumb makes more sense, but I still don’t give a pass to anyone that shoots themself drawing from a Serpa, or a Gen I Sig for that matter.

The first rule of Fight Club is: Keep your booger hook off the bang switch until you’re ready to split wig.
 
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dro

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Just got my first sticky holster. Wore my shield behind the back for about four hours today. Very doable. Was beginning to think I would never find anything that would work for me edc.
 

dro

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Have the M&P 9mm 17+1, had to put in an Apex trigger right away. Looking at the .45 not sure maybe, HK . 15+1 double action
 

SteveC

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When there is a problem with the Serpa it is user error, every time. I have one, too. But, I do not use it for anything where I need (or, may need) a fast draw, though. I have special holsters for my competitions - race, where permitted; full coverage where required.

I do, however, understand why an inexperienced, or over-stressed shooter may have problems with the Serpa system. Even for someone well trained, a very small error in execution can result in an ND.

That's why the system is not permitted in IDPA and also why several LE agencies have moved away from it, too. One could make a case that competition shooters and LE are (should be) well trained in drawing and re-holstering.
 

pinefd

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pinefd

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And here's another toy I just picked up...a Sig P210A model. I wasn't crazy about the target grips that it came with, though, and swapped them out for more traditional grips. I absolutely love how this gun shoots. It's probably my new favorite.




Frank
 

Who

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FYI, you can now buy just the P365 SAS slide assembly, which includes the above sights, directly from Sig (although temporarily sold out). It will fit on any of the 365 models, including the standard, XL and MS models. I ordered one, myself, earlier today to try on my MS model. Here's a link: https://www.sigsauer.com/store/p365-sas-slide-assembly.html


Frank
That's quite a reasonable deal, considering the stights cost about $140.

Plus, it offers an option for the people who want an SAS without the ported barrel.
 

Bownse

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so I still don’t see how it’s anything but user-error.
I can bet that ALL ND's are considered "operator error" except in the eyes of the operator trying to find someone other than themselves to blame.

Have the M&P 9mm 17+1, had to put in an Apex trigger right away. Looking at the .45 not sure maybe, HK . 15+1 double action
The FNX Tactical in 45 is a huge honkin' beast but it fits my hand, is reliable, and for open carry as a "service" pistol option. That's a combo that's hard to dismiss. It's not one of my 1911s but as much as I like the engineering and reliability of the 3 different Sigs (in 2 different calibers) that I have had, they always felt like holding a 2x4.
 

Who

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I can bet that ALL ND's are considered "operator error" except in the eyes of the operator trying to find someone other than themselves to blame.....
Of course. That’s what the ‘N’ stands for.

What annoys me are the self-superior people who say things like “there’s no such thing as an ‘accidental discharge’, they are all ND”. Those people don’t seem to understand that these are machines, and machines can fail to work as expected.

That’s why the rules of gun handling are so important. An AD hurts no one if we follow the rules.
 

ehb

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And here's another toy I just picked up...a Sig P210A model. I wasn't crazy about the target grips that it came with, though, and swapped them out for more traditional grips. I absolutely love how this gun shoots. It's probably my new favorite.




Frank

I have drooled over a 210 since a teen I think.... I'm 62 now... Finest 9mm design ever...
 

Who

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And here's another toy I just picked up...a Sig P210A model. I wasn't crazy about the target grips that it came with, though, and swapped them out for more traditional grips. I absolutely love how this gun shoots. It's probably my new favorite.




Frank
Those are dreamy.
 

ehb

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Of course. That’s what the ‘N’ stands for.

What annoys me are the self-superior people who say things like “there’s no such thing as an ‘accidental discharge’, they are all ND”. Those people don’t seem to understand that these are machines, and machines can fail to work as expected.

That’s why the rules of gun handling are so important. An AD hurts no one if we follow the rules.
I understand your point but still disagree.

It always boils down to somebody farked up.

My point is not burn somebody... rather to understand it always boils down to somebody messed up in some form. Always.

If a part fails, somebody messed up. It could have been in compromised metal casting from metal supply co., part manu, inspection, or the end user did not evaluate for wear, or just dumbass operation.

Somebody screwed up. Period. Blame is not the issue. If all procedure is followed including PM, cleaning, and such, it would be extremely rare for ADs because some reasons taken out of the equations....

In my days as RD, I briefed folks "If there is a supposed AD anywhere on this compound, it will be investigated until it is determined what/who caused the discharge, and if possible, we will rectify the issue. There are NO accidents of any kind in this world, least of all here.... It always boils down to somebody screwed up....

Again, it is not particularly about blame, it is about the discharge and exactly how and why it happened and steps to prevent it ever happening again...


A student in a different dept than I taught, had a brand new Z-28, Trans Am, something like that, his dad bought him that day. The center of the front was bashed almost to the middle of engine compartment.

I asked him WTH happened....
'I accidently hit a tree.'
- What were you doing?
"I had dropped something in the floor and was reaching for it and the car accidentally went off the road and hit the tree."
- Bullshit. You DROVE that car into the tree. You could not have done a better job centering it with a damn chalk line on the hood. You took that tree dead center. Good job!
"It was an accident. I didn't drive into the tree."
- Sure you did. Did the damn tree pop out in front of you?
"No."
- Then you aimed that car at the tree. You were in the driver's seat. Your hands were on the wheel. That is no accident. You not paying shit for attention does not make it an accident. YOU did it.
 

Who

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Still, not all unintentional discharges are ND. While rare, a failure of the gun or ammunition is not ‘negligence’ on the part of the shooter.

I realize it’s a matter of semantics, but there are ADs.


I’m not sure where the switch got flipped in word-usage. Used to be, most were lumped as ADs, then the term ND came into vogue, to show responsibility. THEN, as people piled on, they started to say there is no such thing as an AD, which just isn’t true.



Reminds me of the clip-vs-magazine argument or the “it's not an assault rifle” argument. People get enameled with a semantic point of view, then decide they are experts. Not calling you out, this is more a comment on gun-mag writers, and the internet “experts” that followed.
 

ehb

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May not have been the shooter at fault. It very well could have been unrelated to shooter, rather the manu or foundry......STILL does not change the fact it is NOT an accident. Somebody messed up...

Accident should be stricken from the dictionary. I refuse to accept accident. I taught my kids the same.
Logic and Best/Worst Case Scenario before doing ANYTHING will prevent most bullshit from ever happening... I beat that into my kids heads. They are adult now and kicking the world's ass in a fashion.... My son shoots. He checks, cleans, and maintains his shit. I know he hears me repeating 'Have you run Best/Worst scenario? Well have you?"



I accidentally formatted my hard drive. - Bullshit.
I accidentally hit another car backing up. - Bullshit.
I accidentally shot my truck while deer hunting. - Bullshit.
I accidentally spilled hot coffee on my junk. - Bullshit.

I thought that round sounded funny but it accidentally got stuck but I didn't know it so I pulled trig again accidentally.
- Bullshit. Lucky your dumb ass is alive. YOU dicked up by pulling trig again when you KNEW damn well the previous was out of norm but you did it anyway, and whomever loaded that round dicked up.



Accident my ass. Doesn't matter YOU or WHO (but I repeat myself). SOMEBODY screwed up.

I do understand your view, I just do not agree nor accept 'accident' as legit.... Always somebody screwed up somewhere in the time line.....

ZERO negative feelings, bud. None. Just differing opinion which is cool.

Accident is a cop-out in my book....a way for some to skate responsibility....not that I want to line up in front of the stone fence, but rather take ownership of a farkup to prevent same from ever happening....


You didn't accidentally knock the rocks glass with 50yr old Scotch out of my hand.
You intentionally weren't watching where the hell you were walking. If you were, your head would be aimed in that direction and would have noticed the glass of scotch in my hand and my big ass standing there...
It was 50yr old scotch. Prepare to accidentally die!

:cool:
 

Who

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That definition seems too robotic for humans.

I do feel that 99.99% of things called “accidents” are preventable.


But an example of an “accident” could be... driving at night, you hit unseen ice, slide off the road. Preventable? Yup? Negligent? A matter of opinion. But it is still “accidental” (as opposed to “intentional”).


A long time ago, my brother and I worked out a mental exercise, where we tried to boil down all auto traffic and safety rules down to the minimum (like the ‘rules of shooting’).

We got the rules down to one.

“Don’t hit things”.


You could eliminate every speed-limit, traffic signal, safety sign, auto injury/death if everybody followed this one rule. You wouldn’t even need to be on a certain side of the road.



This rule would also need to apply to mechanical failures, as well as human behavior.


This rule also exposes the idea that 99.9999999% of auto “accidents” are preventable negligence of following the prime directive (don’t hit things).





Which is to say, I sort of agree with you. But I realize we are dealing with humans, and their contraptions.
 

ehb

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But an example of an “accident” could be... driving at night, you hit unseen ice, slide off the road. Preventable? Yup? Negligent? A matter of opinion. But it is still “accidental” (as opposed to “intentional”).
Understand but let me play with the verbiage and such for a moment

If it is preventable, then it is impossible it be accidental.

Negligent? Matter of opinion?

If it is 'accidental', negligence can not apply. If it is preventable, then 'accidental' can not apply.


Were conditions such that one knew there could be black ice?
Were conditions such that special tires were necessary for safety?
Was the vehicle adequately equipped and/or prepared for such conditions?
Was the driver experienced enough to warrant driving in such conditions?
Was there signage cautioning travelers of such hazards?
Was driver familiar enough with area to expect the possibility of black ice on roadway under said conditions?



Which is to say, I sort of agree with you. But I realize we are dealing with humans, and their contraptions.

I know.... ;)
 

LtDave32

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You didn't accidentally knock the rocks glass with 50yr old Scotch out of my hand.
You intentionally weren't watching where the hell you were walking. If you were, your head would be aimed in that direction and would have noticed the glass of scotch in my hand and my big ass standing there...
It was 50yr old scotch. Prepare to accidentally die!

:cool:
50 YO scotch?

that's a capital offense. You can NOT let that man get away.

How 'bout he accidentally walks into an accidental barbed spike at accidentally-installed eye-level?

Or how about your accidental boot up his accidental ass? well gee-whiz, how did dat get dere?

I'd say he owes you about 50 years of yard work.
 




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