Ideal rate of twist (MLP firearms and shooting thread)

45WinMag

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Almost all my NFA stuff is currently on one big trust (I haven't done a Form 1 or 4 since the CLEO rules changed). So I can add more RPs to my existing trust without having them do all the nonsense?

On my trust, I am guarantor and trustee. My brother is successor trustee.

Another edit: I will be using my trust for the upcoming Form 1, thanks for the advice. I was mostly wondering if my brother, as successor trustee, would be subject to any nonsense, but it appears that a successor trustee is not an RP.
 
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GunMonkeyINTL

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Almost all my NFA stuff is currently on one big trust (I haven't done a Form 1 or 4 since the CLEO rules changed). So I can add more RPs to my existing trust without having them do all the nonsense?

On my trust, I am guarantor and trustee. My brother is successor trustee.

Another edit: I will be using my trust for the upcoming Form 1, thanks for the advice. I was mostly wondering if my brother, as successor trustee, would be subject to any nonsense, but it appears that a successor trustee is not an RP.

Simple answer: Yes. One way or another, you can add other people (and remove people) from your trust.

You'll have to read the text of your trust, and possibly enlist the help of a lawyer in order to figure out how to do it. Depending on what you find there, it might be time for a new one.

I use the Gun Trust Guru product, and it's extremely well suited to handling NFA stuff, without having to pay a lawyer every time you want to change something. The document is broken down into the trust itself, preformed amendments to add trustees, remove trustees, etc. and a separate instruction sheet on how to execute each.

If I want to add someone as a trustee, I print an amendment sheet, we both sign it, get it notarized, and stick it in the folder. If I want to remove a trustee, I tear their sheet up. If I need to change my successor trustee or beneficiary (neither of which are RPs), I have to "restate" the trust, which is basically just changing the names of those people, reprint and execute the docoment (my signature w/ notary).

How yours will work all comes down to how it was written. But, again, you can always restate it.

-------------------------------------------

The reason all this changed (and which will apparently affect how you do things, since your last application was before the CLEO change) was ATF rule #41F.

41F did two significant things.

It changed the CLEO sign-off to CLEO notification- win for all of us. Even if you had a friendly CLEO, the wait/step of getting them to sign was a pain for many.

It also changed the rules on who had to go through the FBI check. Pre-41F, only the grantor of the trust had to send in fingerprints, photos, and the 5320. Post 41F, every RP on the trust had to.

That's not a problem for everyone, but sometimes even getting a second or third person's doc together could be a pain.

The new rule also made it easier, if you knew what you were doing. The 41F Q&A stated that if an RP was added while a stamp was in review, the ATF had to be notified, but acknowledged that there was no obligation to inform them if any were added after approval.

The resulting work-around is the "single-shot trust", where a new trust is executed for each new transfer. The only RP on the trust is the grantor (you), when the F4 is sent in. After the stamp comes back, you add whoever you need, and life is good.

(note that the laws about allowing prohibited persons access to your guns still applies, so you need to exercise caution when adding RPs. If they aren't allowed to possess a gun, their name shouldn't be anywhere near your trust. It doesn't become a broken law until they get possession of something, but you're better off not even having them on it to begin with)
 
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Bownse

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Can you e-file as an individual? I thought it was just trusts, and with the CLEO signature gone, there's really not much reason to go with a trust anymore.

Trusts are more a function of how to manage the inventory when you pass and if you want someone to be able to use the can without you being present.

With one big trust, you either have to send in everyone’s pictures, prints, and 5320s for each new transfer, or you have to remove them as RPs until the new stamp comes. With a new trust for each item, I’m the only RP when the F4 gets filed, and the others don’t get added until the stamp comes.
The guy that helped me set my trust up did it in such a way that RP paperwork is completed by the person (and the trust "owner"), when buying a new NFA item you simply move that sheet of paper to an inactive section of the binder. Once the stamp comes in you move the paperwork back into the active RP section. Easy peezy.
 
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GunMonkeyINTL

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Trusts are more a function of how to manage the inventory when you pass and if you want someone to be able to use the can without you being present.

With one big trust, you either have to send in everyone’s pictures, prints, and 5320s for each new transfer, or you have to remove them as RPs until the new stamp comes. With a new trust for each item, I’m the only RP when the F4 gets filed, and the others don’t get added until the stamp comes.
The guy that helped me set my trust up did it in such a way that RP paperwork is completed by the person (and the trust "owner"), when buying a new NFA item you simply move that sheet of paper to an inactive section of the binder. Once the stamp comes in you move the paperwork back into the active RP section. Easy peezy.
I can’t say that’s wrong. I’m not an NFA or trust lawyer, so I’m not qualified to say that what your guy told you is wrong, but it does run counter to what I do know about the NFA and trust law- and it raises a couple significant concerns.

Form 4s are dated documents, as are trust and articles of incorporation amendments. Post 41F, most trusts were set up with a clear amendment path to removing trustees, specifically to get them off the trust before submitting a new F1/4 application. The point of the amendment was to provide dated documentation that they were not RPs at the time of the application, and to be able to document that the date they were added back was after approval.

The point to that was that, if your Form 4 ever came into question/investigation, you’d be able to show that the trust you provided to the ATF was accurate at the time of the application.

There was a well-known NFA trust lawyer instructing his clients to remove trustees by simply tearing up their appointment amendment, and creating a new one if they ever wanted to add them back. That was problematic because there was never a dated document showing that they were removed between the last approval and the next submission. It is my understanding that he’s no longer recommending that practice, and now has a removal amendment.

The situation your trust creates is more concerning because you have a dated document showing them added, but not one showing them removed. If your NFA stamps ever came into question (in a court of law), the government would be able to show all these RPs as being on your trust, but you’d have no way to substantiate that they actually weren’t on it when they weren’t supposed to be. Trust law varies from state to state, with many requiring notary validation for amendments. It just doesn’t seem like physically moving an amendment to another folder would be a valid legal device.

That all said, if the guy who set your trust up that way is a lawyer in your state, and knows what he’s doing, then that is a really easy way to handle it. That arrangement would just make me a little nervous.
 

45WinMag

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I just set up a trust for the 607 and had it notarized. I had already engraved it as an individual, so I named the trust "First Middle Last 1". Instead of re-engraving, I can just add a "1" after my name with my metal stamps.

Question: My big trust has the guarantor (me) as the sole authority for making amendments. Can an amendment adding trustees be made solely with my signature, or do I have to drag all the added trustees down to the notary with me to sign also?
 

scott1970

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Who knew that an okra farmer would be an authority on suppressed shooting. :)
I’m far from an authority on anything including firearms and firearm related items. What I am is fortunate when it comes to guns, and that’s because I have my own gun range. That has allowed me to acquire friends and acquaintances who have FFLs and fine machine gun collections. These gentlemen have been very generous with their toys when it comes to a private and secure location to fully enjoy the wonders of full autos and suppressors. And I used to own an uzi and tommy gun, both on Form 4s back when it took thirty day turnarounds. I passed on an MP40 taken from the Battle of the Buldge, and that one I regret. My wife was even on board with it. I still wonder what I was thinking.
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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I just set up a trust for the 607 and had it notarized. I had already engraved it as an individual, so I named the trust "First Middle Last 1". Instead of re-engraving, I can just add a "1" after my name with my metal stamps.

Question: My big trust has the guarantor (me) as the sole authority for making amendments. Can an amendment adding trustees be made solely with my signature, or do I have to drag all the added trustees down to the notary with me to sign also?
That all depends on how your trust is written, which hopefully is written that way to comply with your state law. Adding trustees to mine requires both our signatures on a notarized amendment. I think that’s pretty common, but have never run a trust in another state.

The engraving on your 607 lower is going to need to be “First Middle Last 1 Trust”, since that is now the legal name of the entity making it.
 

45WinMag

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Okay, going to do another trust then, because I did not include the word "trust" as part of my trust name in the hope of not having to engrave it. Not a big deal, I have free notary services at Navy Federal. Trying to minimize what I have to add.

I'm still going to use stamps because it's going to be a huge hassle to set up to engrave again. Was hoping I could whack a "1" on it and be done (my engraving is tight - not much room to put anything between name and city/state).
 

45WinMag

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Where did you engrave it? These guys do a pretty slick engraving up inside the trigger bow, where it's almost invisible- pretty cheap. You could get a second engraving if you need to.

I engraved on the front of the magwell. I'll break out my CNC machine before I send it off, but I'm still looking to avoid that.

I'm still wondering why the word "trust" needs to be engraved if the name of the trust does not include the word "trust". Is this one of the ATF's big ideas? For any other purposes, the name of a trust does not need to include the word "trust" (although typically people do include it).

My other trust is set up like this:

Part 1. Trust Name

This revocable living trust shall be known as the First Middle Last Revocable Living Trust.


The one I set up today is like this:

Part 1. Trust Name

This revocable living trust shall be known as First Middle Last 1.
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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I engraved on the front of the magwell. I'll break out my CNC machine before I send it off, but I'm still looking to avoid that.

I'm still wondering why the word "trust" needs to be engraved if the name of the trust does not include the word "trust". Is this one of the ATF's big ideas? For any other purposes, the name of a trust does not need to include the word "trust" (although typically people do include it).

My other trust is set up like this:

Part 1. Trust Name

This revocable living trust shall be known as the First Middle Last Revocable Living Trust.

The one I set up today is like this:

Part 1. Trust Name

This revocable living trust shall be known as First Middle Last 1.
I could be wrong. Won't deny that, but on the F4, the transferee will be listed as "First Middle Last 1 Trust". Gibson doesn't need to put "Gibson LLC", or whatever they are, on every headstock, because that's just a logo. They do need to properly identify themselves on any legally-binding document, though. That's what a F4 is.

If you really want to test it out, you could hold-fire on the engraving (you don't technically need to engrave until the second before you pin the upper on), and submit your F1 with just "First Middle Last 1" in block 3b. If your examiner never calls you to submit a corrected F1, and approves it, then that is the transferee, stated exactly like that. If they do call and ask for a correction, you've only cost yourself a week or so, and you got your answer.

I'd be interested to hear it. I've seen people get approved with necessity statements of "in case of zombie apocalypse", so who knows.
 

Bownse

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There was a well-known NFA trust lawyer instructing his clients to remove trustees by simply tearing up their appointment amendment, and creating a new one if they ever wanted to add them back. That was problematic because there was never a dated document showing that they were removed between the last approval and the next submission. It is my understanding that he’s no longer recommending that practice, and now has a removal amendment.

The situation your trust creates is more concerning because you have a dated document showing them added, but not one showing them removed. If your NFA stamps ever came into question (in a court of law), the government would be able to show all these RPs as being on your trust, but you’d have no way to substantiate that they actually weren’t on it when they weren’t supposed to be. Trust law varies from state to state, with many requiring notary validation for amendments. It just doesn’t seem like physically moving an amendment to another folder would be a valid legal device.

That all said, if the guy who set your trust up that way is a lawyer in your state, and knows what he’s doing, then that is a really easy way to handle it. That arrangement would just make me a little nervous.
Understood and something I discussed with the lawyer that does these in TX all the time (who created the trust for me). There is a dated document of RP in the active section. Moving it into inactive (or tearing it up) means that there is no indication that it was there at the time of "activity". If dates of a stamp are a concern, then doing a new page with a new date addresses the timelines. They weren't an RP during the time of stamp application, so that's that.
 

Dun Ringill

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Well, I don't have anything fancy like suppressors or rocket launchers, but I should be able to pick up my lower receiver today!! In the near future I am looking at getting a drill press and trying my hand at an 80% lower to cut out the middle man.
 

Dun Ringill

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Well, I don't have anything fancy like suppressors or rocket launchers, but I should be able to pick up my lower receiver today!! In the near future I am looking at getting a drill press and trying my hand at an 80% lower to cut out the middle man.
1565890031378.png


Looks like I'll be putting some legos together tonight!
 

Who

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Also, Dun, if this is your first SBR errr.... I’m mean “pistol”, use earplugs and muffs when you get to the range. And warn the people near you.
 




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