Ideal rate of twist (MLP firearms and shooting thread)

45WinMag

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Form 1s are only taking a couple weeks, if you e-file them.
Can you e-file as an individual? I thought it was just trusts, and with the CLEO signature gone, there's really not much reason to go with a trust anymore.
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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Can you e-file as an individual? I thought it was just trusts, and with the CLEO signature gone, there's really not much reason to go with a trust anymore.
You can file as an individual. You never get a physical stamp; they just email you a PDF (which is a separate rant I’m liable to go on; I mean, I MEAN... I MEEEEAAAANNNN.... if they insist... if they INSIST on using the antiquated tax-stamp system, and they want $200 for the silly thing... then give me my damned stamp! Right?)....anyway... yes, you can e-file an F1 as an individual.

I disagree about the trusts, though. CLEO sign-off, if that was an issue for you, was only one reason to use trusts. There are two other huge benefits:

1- there is no issue with having them accessible to people you live with. Ex: I live in the middle of nowhere, and our main porch/chicken coop/coyote rifle is a .357 lever gun with a .45 can on it. It sits behind the front door for quick access. The .22 in the kitchen drawer has a can. Heck, even our bedroom closet AR has a can on it. All the people who are ever allowed to be at my house when I’m not there (and there aren’t many) are Responsible-Persons on the trusts for those cans. Anything I keep in a safe, can also be a safe my wife knows the combination to. That’s a no-go on individual F4 approvals.

B- if your heir is also an RP on the trust, they can take immediate possession, should you become dead. Normally, the ATF will send a local field agent to come get yo’ shit, sit on yo’ shit until the rightful heir can be sorted out, and then process a F5 (tax-free transfer for government end-use, and civilian heirs), but who knows how long that will all take to sort out? They normally expedite a F5 to get it out of their arms room, but, with a trust, your heir (if they’re an RP) can take it immediately, and hold it for the trust until their F5 clears.


I do all my stuff on individual trusts, now (hence the AOW I’m transferring back to “myself”). I bought a quality trust, then broke it into Word. Every NFA item goes on its own trust, titled the serial of the item.

With one big trust, you either have to send in everyone’s pictures, prints, and 5320s for each new transfer, or you have to remove them as RPs until the new stamp comes. With a new trust for each item, I’m the only RP when the F4 gets filed, and the others don’t get added until the stamp comes.

Look into getting a trust set up. It will save you from having to think about paying $200 per item just to transfer them into one later.
 

smk506

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I got my trust exactly for the reasons gunmonkey listed above. My family can use my stuff without worrying about it, I don’t need to fret over who has access to what and in the event I kick the bucket it’s a non issue.

Now that said, those were the reasons, the reality is that no one besides my dad had any actual inclination to be on it and I only ever bought the one .22 suppressor instead of the heaps of them I anticipated getting. :laugh2:

I’m still glad I have it, one day I’ll get some more stuff for it and if it ever became prudent for any reason to transfer my collection entirely it’s all ready to go.
 

THDNUT

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If one sells their class III weapon or suppressor (or SBR) don't throw your tax stamp away, it's worth money to stamp collectors. Newer issue stamps bring at least $20. Hey, enough (almost) for a case of beer.

The original series 1934 stamps bring the highest prices. :naughty:
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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If one sells their class III weapon or suppressor (or SBR) don't throw your tax stamp away, it's worth money to stamp collectors. Newer issue stamps bring at least $20. Hey, enough (almost) for a case of beer.

The original series 1934 stamps bring the highest prices. :naughty:
They are. The odd thing is that the AOW stamp is often the most desirable, even though it's only $5, because it's red (instead of gray) and much less common than the $200 one.
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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I got my trust exactly for the reasons gunmonkey listed above. My family can use my stuff without worrying about it, I don’t need to fret over who has access to what and in the event I kick the bucket it’s a non issue.

Now that said, those were the reasons, the reality is that no one besides my dad had any actual inclination to be on it and I only ever bought the one .22 suppressor instead of the heaps of them I anticipated getting. :laugh2:

I’m still glad I have it, one day I’ll get some more stuff for it and if it ever became prudent for any reason to transfer my collection entirely it’s all ready to go.
Hey, a little bird told me that e-file F1s only take a couple weeks. Time for those SBR lowers you always wanted. :)
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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Any Other Weapon

Short shotguns without a shoulder stock, cane-guns, shoot-through holsters etc.

Anything that's not a rifle (or SBR), shotgun (or SBS), pistol, silencer, or "destructive device"

I'll post a pic of mine when my work phone charges back up.

ETA: "shotguns" in a pistol format are the most common because a "rifle" in a pistol format is just a "pistol". The NFA definitions are based heavily around whether the bore is "grooved" and whether the weapon is "designed to be fired from the shoulder"... Which is where the whole SBR, SBS, AOW, and even the braced-pistol AR and AK come from.
 
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THDNUT

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I wonder how many people get approved for a destructive device tax stamp?

"I want to own a grenade or a claymore and I'll pay $200 for the privilege to set it off." :laugh2:

I don't imagine too many people get tax stamps for these kinds of things.

Now, I know that rifles above .50 caliber are in this category.
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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What's an RP?

Also, thanks for the very informative post!
Responsible Person... essentially an officer in your trust (think of a Trust like an LLC). Most gun trusts are set up so that you can add other people as RPs, at which point they can be in possession of the property controlled by the trust.



Here’s a pic of that AOW.
I think (don’t know, but think) it’s the only 12ga O/U AOW from a major manufacturer in the US. The unique requirements for an AOW shotgun to come-to-be have made it really difficult to end up with an O/U shotgun in that format. If you were to make one yourself, from scratch (even the receiver, since it can’t ever have had a shoulder stock touch it), you could F1 it as an AOW, but an AOW F1 is $200, so most people would go ahead and make it an SBS, so they had the option of putting a stock on it.

This one was made as a prototype door breacher for a unit that shall remain nameless.
99E57DDA-FA6E-435C-B8CA-7C066398552A.jpeg
 

smk506

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I wonder how many people get approved for a destructive device tax stamp?

"I want to own a grenade or a claymore and I'll pay $200 for the privilege to set it off." :laugh2:

I don't imagine too many people get tax stamps for these kinds of things.

Now, I know that rifles above .50 caliber are in this category.

MyPinappleGrenade.com :D
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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I wonder how many people get approved for a destructive device tax stamp?

"I want to own a grenade or a claymore and I'll pay $200 for the privilege to set it off." :laugh2:

I don't imagine too many people get tax stamps for these kinds of things.

Now, I know that rifles above .50 caliber are in this category.
Dudes do it. Crazy, but they do.

I know guys with legit M203s, and RPGs. The crazy part is that the launcher, itself is a DD, but each explosive round for it is as well. So, $200 stamp for the launcher, and $200 stamp (and, 8-12 month wait) for each grenade.


... and you’re supposed to inform the ATF each time you “destroy” one of your grenades. ;)
 

45WinMag

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Almost all my NFA stuff is currently on one big trust (I haven't done a Form 1 or 4 since the CLEO rules changed). So I can add more RPs to my existing trust without having them do all the nonsense?

On my trust, I am guarantor and trustee. My brother is successor trustee.

Another edit: I will be using my trust for the upcoming Form 1, thanks for the advice. I was mostly wondering if my brother, as successor trustee, would be subject to any nonsense, but it appears that a successor trustee is not an RP.
 
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GunMonkeyINTL

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Almost all my NFA stuff is currently on one big trust (I haven't done a Form 1 or 4 since the CLEO rules changed). So I can add more RPs to my existing trust without having them do all the nonsense?

On my trust, I am guarantor and trustee. My brother is successor trustee.

Another edit: I will be using my trust for the upcoming Form 1, thanks for the advice. I was mostly wondering if my brother, as successor trustee, would be subject to any nonsense, but it appears that a successor trustee is not an RP.

Simple answer: Yes. One way or another, you can add other people (and remove people) from your trust.

You'll have to read the text of your trust, and possibly enlist the help of a lawyer in order to figure out how to do it. Depending on what you find there, it might be time for a new one.

I use the Gun Trust Guru product, and it's extremely well suited to handling NFA stuff, without having to pay a lawyer every time you want to change something. The document is broken down into the trust itself, preformed amendments to add trustees, remove trustees, etc. and a separate instruction sheet on how to execute each.

If I want to add someone as a trustee, I print an amendment sheet, we both sign it, get it notarized, and stick it in the folder. If I want to remove a trustee, I tear their sheet up. If I need to change my successor trustee or beneficiary (neither of which are RPs), I have to "restate" the trust, which is basically just changing the names of those people, reprint and execute the docoment (my signature w/ notary).

How yours will work all comes down to how it was written. But, again, you can always restate it.

-------------------------------------------

The reason all this changed (and which will apparently affect how you do things, since your last application was before the CLEO change) was ATF rule #41F.

41F did two significant things.

It changed the CLEO sign-off to CLEO notification- win for all of us. Even if you had a friendly CLEO, the wait/step of getting them to sign was a pain for many.

It also changed the rules on who had to go through the FBI check. Pre-41F, only the grantor of the trust had to send in fingerprints, photos, and the 5320. Post 41F, every RP on the trust had to.

That's not a problem for everyone, but sometimes even getting a second or third person's doc together could be a pain.

The new rule also made it easier, if you knew what you were doing. The 41F Q&A stated that if an RP was added while a stamp was in review, the ATF had to be notified, but acknowledged that there was no obligation to inform them if any were added after approval.

The resulting work-around is the "single-shot trust", where a new trust is executed for each new transfer. The only RP on the trust is the grantor (you), when the F4 is sent in. After the stamp comes back, you add whoever you need, and life is good.

(note that the laws about allowing prohibited persons access to your guns still applies, so you need to exercise caution when adding RPs. If they aren't allowed to possess a gun, their name shouldn't be anywhere near your trust. It doesn't become a broken law until they get possession of something, but you're better off not even having them on it to begin with)
 
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Bownse

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Can you e-file as an individual? I thought it was just trusts, and with the CLEO signature gone, there's really not much reason to go with a trust anymore.

Trusts are more a function of how to manage the inventory when you pass and if you want someone to be able to use the can without you being present.

With one big trust, you either have to send in everyone’s pictures, prints, and 5320s for each new transfer, or you have to remove them as RPs until the new stamp comes. With a new trust for each item, I’m the only RP when the F4 gets filed, and the others don’t get added until the stamp comes.
The guy that helped me set my trust up did it in such a way that RP paperwork is completed by the person (and the trust "owner"), when buying a new NFA item you simply move that sheet of paper to an inactive section of the binder. Once the stamp comes in you move the paperwork back into the active RP section. Easy peezy.
 
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GunMonkeyINTL

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Trusts are more a function of how to manage the inventory when you pass and if you want someone to be able to use the can without you being present.

With one big trust, you either have to send in everyone’s pictures, prints, and 5320s for each new transfer, or you have to remove them as RPs until the new stamp comes. With a new trust for each item, I’m the only RP when the F4 gets filed, and the others don’t get added until the stamp comes.
The guy that helped me set my trust up did it in such a way that RP paperwork is completed by the person (and the trust "owner"), when buying a new NFA item you simply move that sheet of paper to an inactive section of the binder. Once the stamp comes in you move the paperwork back into the active RP section. Easy peezy.
I can’t say that’s wrong. I’m not an NFA or trust lawyer, so I’m not qualified to say that what your guy told you is wrong, but it does run counter to what I do know about the NFA and trust law- and it raises a couple significant concerns.

Form 4s are dated documents, as are trust and articles of incorporation amendments. Post 41F, most trusts were set up with a clear amendment path to removing trustees, specifically to get them off the trust before submitting a new F1/4 application. The point of the amendment was to provide dated documentation that they were not RPs at the time of the application, and to be able to document that the date they were added back was after approval.

The point to that was that, if your Form 4 ever came into question/investigation, you’d be able to show that the trust you provided to the ATF was accurate at the time of the application.

There was a well-known NFA trust lawyer instructing his clients to remove trustees by simply tearing up their appointment amendment, and creating a new one if they ever wanted to add them back. That was problematic because there was never a dated document showing that they were removed between the last approval and the next submission. It is my understanding that he’s no longer recommending that practice, and now has a removal amendment.

The situation your trust creates is more concerning because you have a dated document showing them added, but not one showing them removed. If your NFA stamps ever came into question (in a court of law), the government would be able to show all these RPs as being on your trust, but you’d have no way to substantiate that they actually weren’t on it when they weren’t supposed to be. Trust law varies from state to state, with many requiring notary validation for amendments. It just doesn’t seem like physically moving an amendment to another folder would be a valid legal device.

That all said, if the guy who set your trust up that way is a lawyer in your state, and knows what he’s doing, then that is a really easy way to handle it. That arrangement would just make me a little nervous.
 

45WinMag

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I just set up a trust for the 607 and had it notarized. I had already engraved it as an individual, so I named the trust "First Middle Last 1". Instead of re-engraving, I can just add a "1" after my name with my metal stamps.

Question: My big trust has the guarantor (me) as the sole authority for making amendments. Can an amendment adding trustees be made solely with my signature, or do I have to drag all the added trustees down to the notary with me to sign also?
 




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