I made more swirls than I removed!

[Goat Crossing]

Disclaimer: I am not a luthier as will be obvious.

I bought a used Epi LP tribute 60 mostly for the pretty blue color. (Although tbh, I prefer the trans blue available on some Gibson & Epis of certain years, all I could find/afford was the midnight sapphire.)

I went to polish it and used same approach I recently used on translucent blue laquer drums (you might sense a theme here.) On the drums, I used microfiber cloths and Meguiar's tan bottle pro products #9 Swirl Remover 2.0, the #7 Show Car Glaze, finishing w/ #34 Final Inspection - the same 3 products previously marketed by Fender. For stubborn scratches, I had some Novus #2 scratch remover which worked very well.

I started with the Meg's #9 Swirl on the LP but I saw it had scratches that were similar the scratches on the drums. Unaware of the silicone in Novus #2, I switched to use it to get at the scratches. No effect. Maybe worse. I now notice every inch is clouded with visible swirl lines as you can see in my pics. (Click the pics to see better. They seem only visible near the light source reflection, but they're everywhere and very noticeable when at the right angle.)

I don't know what I was thinking then, but now think the scratch remover probably made the swirls (cuz I don't see how I could have missed something so widespread and bad.) Boneheadedly, I decided to try some amazing chrome polish I have on a smallish spot on the back. Boy did I eff things up. It looked like I'd taken semi-fine steel wool to it. Roughed up badly.

At that point, I researched, learned that the only fine abrading polish without silicone is Turtle Wax Premium. Got myself some and also a nice 5" buffing bit with some lambswool pads. Hit the back of the axe w/ that and made the chrome polish marks go away, but seemed to be making even deeper swirls. Read more and learned NOT to use wool pads for fine work.
Ordered some Griot foam correcting pads and really thought - as long as I'm careful not to lose control and go past the finish - this would buff everything to an even look, ready for the Meguiar's routine.

Nope. The turtle wax leaves swirls. Tried the Meg's swirl remover. Nope.
So...

Maybe I just have to do it longer? Maybe it's wrong grit? (Turtle wax is supposedly 2400.)Do I have to get super fine sandpaper or micromesh or do I just have to work what I have longer? The scratches are very light and some people might not notice (although I'd bet stage lights would be quite revealing in a bad way!). Or maybe I could consider it aged, but it's really bugging me.

Can I solve this myself with what I have? The thought of paying hundreds to a pro just to polish a $500 Epi is pretty insane.
Any suggestions or advice are welcome. (Please limit the mudslinging re. my being an idiot to a minimum. Thx)

Randy

 

[Juan Tumani]

Here's a link to a post I had on a sister site. Maybe there's something of value there for you as other people also had great ideas.

Scratch removal test.

Hey All, I have this in another thread but maybe it's worth being it's own thread. A few months ago I bought a guitar I wasn't able to check out in person. The seller told me the guitar had a heavy smoke smell that had prevented other buyers from taking it home. Since I, A. Have a very weak...

www.strat-talk.com

 

[Mr French]

Meguiars ultimate compound works very well. Be very caution thought, only work small areas and use small amount and DO NOT let it dry.

Wipes swirl marks off on cars, used it a few times on guitars and worked very well. Due note I only used it on poly finish and never tried it on nitro.

 

[CB91710]

Welcome!

Virtuoso polish is the best scratch-free polish I’ve used.


I‘ve had great luck with Meguier‘s stuff.


As for silicone or not, I can’t imagine it matters on an Epiphone.

Main thing with silicone is if you ever intend to have it refinished, the painter will hate you.
The stuff does not clean off.

But ya, the Epiphone is poly and shares virtually no common characteristics with nito other than it seals the wood.

 

[Goat Crossing]

You guys are great to reply so quickly. Thx.
But, and I suspect this is only the beginning, this is giving my LP company as my head is starting to swirl, too.

Juan,
Your link was great and the pictures are encouraging that there's hope for my future. For the smoke-smell guitar you describe using Virtuoso finish Cleaner and Polish combo (2 products?) plus D'Addario Restore. But the 2nd "old Gibson" looks a lot like my problem so I wanted to know what you did for it. You don't say if you used Virtuoso, Restore, or both. Please let me know what your technique was on that one.
Then you have "what about poly"? Well that would seem to be even more useful for me, but you went with a totally different approach, using micromesh, then Simichrome, and (I think) Restore, too. Since mine is poly, should I ignore the 1st 2 examples and do I have to do all that you did for the last one?
Thanks,
Randy

 

[Goat Crossing]

Who,
Thanks for the welcome!
You wrote "Virtuoso polish is the best scratch-free polish I’ve used." & also "I‘ve had great luck with Meguiar‘s stuff." Which Meguiar's? The same I have? I assume that the best is better than having great luck, but not sure what you're recommending. Also, does scratch free mean that it doesn't add scratches or that it frees your axe from having scratches (removes existing)? I looked it up and it says it "[uses] a chemical reaction to break down residues. We do not use abrasives." Without abrasives, I don't think it can re-smooth the poly by taking it down to the scratch level. It seems meant to disolve and remove surface gunk, not to fix the flawed poly. Am I wrong?
Thanks,
Randy

 

[Goat Crossing]

Mr. French,
Ultimate compound sounds promising. How did you apply?
Also, you said it wipes swirl marks off. I used that term "swirls" to describe mine but they're actually circular scratches, with visible & distinct lines etched into the poly. (VERY shallow, but etched.) Maybe that's the same thing? And do you think the Ultimate compound it is any different from the turtle wax polish I already have?
Thanks,
Randy

 

[Mr French]

Mr. French,
Ultimate compound sounds promising. How did you apply?
Also, you said it wipes swirl marks off. I used that term "swirls" to describe mine but they're actually circular scratches, with visible & distinct lines etched into the poly. (VERY shallow, but etched.) Maybe that's the same thing? And do you think the Ultimate compound it is any different from the turtle wax polish I already have?
Thanks,
Randy

Apply a pea size amount or even half that. This is not wax and is abrasive hence the use as a swirl remover. I use in a circular motion on cars but again it cannot be left on very long. Do not let it dry. Apply by hand. For those who know how to use these chemicals it's an easy fix.

You'll know when the area is good after it starts looking clearish and feels smoother. All these paste wax and ultimate compound will help fill in some scratches. In terms of etched in, there really no way of fixing that unless you sand and it can't be bad to the point it where paint it needed.

Wax & or polish is more of a top coat and is typically not abrasive.

 

[Mr French]

Who,
Thanks for the welcome!
You wrote "Virtuoso polish is the best scratch-free polish I’ve used." & also "I‘ve had great luck with Meguiar‘s stuff." Which Meguiar's? The same I have? I assume that the best is better than having great luck, but not sure what you're recommending. Also, does scratch free mean that it doesn't add scratches or that it frees your axe from having scratches (removes existing)? I looked it up and it says it "[uses] a chemical reaction to break down residues. We do not use abrasives." Without abrasives, I don't think it can re-smooth the poly by taking it down to the scratch level. It seems meant to disolve and remove surface gunk, not to fix the flawed poly. Am I wrong?
Thanks,
Randy

Here's the thing. Scratches typically occur by your cleaning cloth being contaminated by dust, debris, rocks etc that includes any build up on the cleaning cloth after X amount of uses. Don't use any rough fabric to clean your guitar.

 

[Note Milker]

Let murphy fix it, then you won't have to worry about the paint.... Sorry in advance. Kidding!!! Oh, I got one: don't look down?! No, it doesn't even look bad, play the hell out of it! Sorry for being a smart ass. I have a strat that won't cure, I keep sanding it, get it all glossy, then when it touches the inside of the gig bag it gets all f'd up. When it hangs on the wall for a couple of days it seems to smooth itself out. WTF! Anyway, shit, soon it won't have any paint on it, just like a murphy. There I go again....

 

[Goat Crossing]

Let murphy fix it, then you won't have to worry about the paint.... Sorry in advance. Kidding!!! Oh, I got one: don't look down?! No, it doesn't even look bad, play the hell out of it! Sorry for being a smart ass. I have a strat that won't cure, I keep sanding it, get it all glossy, then when it touches the inside of the gig bag it gets all f'd up. When it hangs on the wall for a couple of days it seems to smooth itself out. WTF! Anyway, shit, soon it won't have any paint on it, just like a murphy. There I go again....

I'll have what you're on
(Murphied modern epi, that's an idea whose time has come!)

 

[Juan Tumani]

You guys are great to reply so quickly. Thx.
But, and I suspect this is only the beginning, this is giving my LP company as my head is starting to swirl, too.

Juan,
Your link was great and the pictures are encouraging that there's hope for my future. For the smoke-smell guitar you describe using Virtuoso finish Cleaner and Polish combo (2 products?) plus D'Addario Restore. But the 2nd "old Gibson" looks a lot like my problem so I wanted to know what you did for it. You don't say if you used Virtuoso, Restore, or both. Please let me know what your technique was on that one.
Then you have "what about poly"? Well that would seem to be even more useful for me, but you went with a totally different approach, using micromesh, then Simichrome, and (I think) Restore, too. Since mine is poly, should I ignore the 1st 2 examples and do I have to do all that you did for the last one?
Thanks,
Randy

For the 2nd old Gibson and the Poly I just used the Restore alone and a soft rag. Literally just wiped on, then wiped off.

The Simichrome area was only done as a comparison because I had seen it suggested.

For the smoke guitar I tried the Virtuoso products first but ultimately it was the Restore that got the job done.

For all the examples on both Nitro and Poly I feel the Restore was the only product that really accomplished the goals.

For your purposes there's no need for any of the micro mesh which I had only used to create scratches for removal.

 

[Goat Crossing]

Thanks so much for the follow up!

 

[Juan Tumani]

Thanks so much for the follow up!

@Mr French is right though.

If you're not using a clean cloth it will be the cause of your swirls and it really won't matter what product you're using.

 

[Maggot_Brain]

I'd stop using automotive products and move to something like a stick polish like they use at Gibson, etc...on their buffing machines. The 'Fender' specific products from Meguiars are specifically formulated for instruments. You can pretty much guarantee it. It's not just the same stuff as "xxxxxxx" in a different bottle. If anyone understands that those are 2 different finishes that require different products, it's Meguiars. So if anything, you might want to buy the actual Fender kit and not just standard auto detailing products.

They may have used automotive paint to paint guitars in the 50's but today, they're 2 totally different things. I doubt anyone uses the same 2-part catalyzed, acrylic urethane 2k clear coat on guitars that they use on cars. From my research, it's used less than nitro is.

Which seems logical because most people and most companies(all?) don't use automotive paint and clearcoats on their guitars. I only ever see it used by private parties, like guitar builder Brad Angove on YouTube.

https://youtube.com/@BradAngove?feature=share8

So I'd start there, with getting the proper products. I was able to polish out scratches on my polyurethane-finished guitars with a stick of blue polishing compound, finer than red, and the proper buffing tools, pads, etc... It was actually recommended to use cotton or felt pads, IIRC. That's what I used, anyway.

Edited to add: this thread goes over pads and compounds. I'd start here. They talk about using the stick compounds that I recommend.

How do I get these crashes/dents out?!

I was using some swirl remover on a cutting pad, and after further inspection, what had originally been a perfectly flat finish now has these little pits in it. These are in several patches across the top. There are also relatively heavy scratches on the top and back. There is perfect mirror...

www.mylespaul.com

 

[Goat Crossing]

Hallelujah!!! And huge shout out and thanks to member stephenwz968.

I appreciate everyone's ideas and suggestions, but from this and other threads I was beginning to feel like I needed special machines or dust-free environs that just weren't in the cards for me. Then Steve private messaged me (don't worry I just got his permission to credit him) that his profession is auto detailing and that he's "worked a lot with polishing out swirls and scratches."

I hope he doesn't mind my quoting him but my results were so staggering, yet quick and easy, that I feel obligated to let y'all know his advice:
"I'd stay away from machines unless you have access to a dual action style 3" polisher. I would try some microfiber towels with Meguiar's M110 and M210 (110 is the more aggressive, finish with 210). Work small sections of 3" x 3" and wipe off with your #34. That should do the trick!"

$70 for the 2 products seems exorbitant in relation to the cost of the Epi, but after reading very elaborate threads stating the non-silicone Premium Turtle Wax was THE answer, or recommending the Novus #2 which had worked well for me on drums, they both seemed to do as much harm as good. And I'd gotten the drill adapter and wool pads, then foam pads, so I'd already spent too much time & money and was ready to give up.

Steve seemed knowledgeable and confidant (maybe I was in a weakened and gullible state) so I ordered me some 110 & 210 which arrived a few hours ago. Then I literally laid the guitar in my lap while sitting on my bed and used plain microfiber cloths from the auto parts store. I was very careful not to press too hard and risk small gauges from contaminants, and I used canned air and a clean cloth with Meg's #34 Final Inspection to clean residue before and after both the 110 & the 210.

I don't think I spent much more than an hour of actual elbow grease but the results are so breathtaking that I haven't even gotten to the 3 final steps of Meg's #9 Swirl Remover 2.0, #7 Show Car Glaze, and more #34 Final Inspection. Check out the new pics! I would feel comfortable playing out with it as is, taking pictures to sell it, whatever. When I do the last 3 steps I'm quite sure it will be spectacularly deeply shiny, but it's already beyond what I initially expected before I effed it up.

Bottom line takeaway(s):
1) Meguiar's 110 followed by 210 is fairly idiot proof and gets the job done without special applicators, buffers, etc. I recommend both without any quams (at least for poly.) They ain't cheap, but it doesn't take much and I have many guitars they'll get used on.
2) stephenwz968 is da man!! I'd be inclined to follow any other suggestions he has on any topic. Steve, if you are near Philly anytime, beer's on me!

Randy

 

[stephenwz968]

\m/