"I do not believe he would hurt anyone" - Mother of an armed robber

OldBenKenobi

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Your surety in this is absurd. I will agree that it's sometimes the case that bad parents help make for bad children, but I've seen it the other way around as well. I've seen good kids who avoided being like their parents, ashamed of them.

I've also noticed that a lot of criminal types-- especially the violent ones-- are head cases who wouldn't have been anything other than a miserable example of a human being if he or she had been raised by Mary and Joseph.

"If one, then all" is one of the worst of illogical responses out there, and is one of the gravest sources of self-righteous hatred and bigotry out there.

Meanwhile, I doubt that you have any particular expertise in the etiology of crime to begin with, or have any genuine experience in the criminal justice system or any other valid basis from which to draw such an inane conclusion.

All you do is parrot your contention endlessly, without offering support other than this is your opinion-- and you seem to feel that the rest of us should presume it's operative since it's coming from you.

--R

Alright then, if someone who raises a crappy kid isn't to blame, who is? Where does the crappiness come from if not from the people who created and raised it?
 

Big John

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I don't give a rat's ass about the armed robber. But I would like to know the weapon, caliber, range, and shooting position that ripened his melon.
 

dave b

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**** that. Children are the fecal matter of their parents. If the kid sucks it's on the parents. They're responsible for what they create and raise.

...and you personally have raised how many children for how many years? If you haven't, you're talking out your a$$. Lots of people suck. That doesn't mean you can blame their parents. Ridiculous idea.
 

jeff_farkas

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Alright then, if someone who raises a crappy kid isn't to blame, who is? Where does the crappiness come from if not from the people who created and raised it?

The people he associates with? Yup,, parents can only do so much when raising a child. If a child wants to hang out with the wrong crowd anything can happen and in this case it did.
 

jeff_farkas

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...and you personally have raised how many children for how many years? If you haven't, you're talking out your a$$. Lots of people suck. That doesn't mean you can blame their parents. Ridiculous idea.

+1,, until you've raised a child or attempted to know one really understands what's totally involved.
 

Tvan

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Alright then, if someone who raises a crappy kid isn't to blame, who is? Where does the crappiness come from if not from the people who created and raised it?

Have you raised kids through adulthood? My Wife and I have three times. They each have their own personalities and personas.
 

Pop1655

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I have a saying that holier than thou parents just ain't had their turn yet.
Wait for it. It'll come.
 

twst1up

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Then they weren't great parents. Great people maybe, but not great parents. Crappy kid = Crappy parents. The quality of parenthood is defined solely by the quality of the child it produced. If you raised a bad kid then "I tried my best" doesn't cut it.

what a bunch of ignorant crap:laugh2:

so, if someone (let's say) becomes a drug addict: that's the parents fault?

do you have children of your own, or are you just monday morning quarterback kinda guy?
 

Roberteaux

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Alright then, if someone who raises a crappy kid isn't to blame, who is? Where does the crappiness come from if not from the people who created and raised it?

I tend to place responsibility on those individuals who acted as malefactors.

The argument against nature vs. nurture is an old one. As I already said to you, I understand that some children might be disadvantaged as a result of the household they grew up in.

My contention with regard to your thesis is that it's unacceptable for its incomplete form. The fact that a great many people who had lousy parents, but grew up to be productive and worthy citizens anyway, is what gives the lie to your absolutist ideas.

--R

ETA: Forgot to mention that I've also seen some genuine scoundrels whose upbringing was pretty much typical and in no way a negative element in their life. But they turned out bad anyway.
 

Otto tune

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I'd hire the guy. head shot, first try. I'd have him be my personal security guard/pizza guy.
No. Poor decision making skills. He should have aimed for center of mass. Body shot. Of course, maybe he did and got the head shot by mistake. Only way to be sure is a double tap.
 

Harmony

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Then they weren't great parents. Great people maybe, but not great parents. Crappy kid = Crappy parents. The quality of parenthood is defined solely by the quality of the child it produced. If you raised a bad kid then "I tried my best" doesn't cut it.

So does that mean when you are 30 and 40 and do crap (doesn't have to be criminal) it would be the fault of your parents?

This guy was 29. Not a kid. Anything can happen when you are an adult. Drugs, mental health, wrong crowd, wrong partner, anything.
 

LtDave32

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I tend to place responsibility on those individuals who acted as malefactors.

The argument against nature vs. nurture is an old one. As I already said to you, I understand that some children might be disadvantaged as a result of the household they grew up in.

My contention with regard to your thesis is that it's unacceptable for its incomplete form. The fact that a great many people who had lousy parents, but grew up to be productive and worthy citizens anyway, is what gives the lie to your absolutist ideas.

--R

ETA: Forgot to mention that I've also seen some genuine scoundrels whose upbringing was pretty much typical and in no way a negative element in their life. But they turned out bad anyway.

Sidin' with Rob here. The man make sense.


However...


I cannot possibly count how many times I've both seen and encountered the situation where "overprotective mom" cherishes their kid to the point of counter-productiveness.

They effectively ruin their own child, dashing their prospects of being a productive, honest member of society into the dirt. "My child can do no wrong" is what I'm on about here.

Even when the evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable that they've done some really crappy thing, they will deny, lie, distort, cover up for and blame anything and everything except their guilty, screwed-up "perp" offspring.

I've encountered families where dad either goes "you did it, you own it" (correct) or turns a blind eye to the mom's antics to get the kid off the hook.

I'm aware that those roles can indeed be reversed, but I've seen it ten to one the first way.
 

jeff_farkas

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Then they weren't great parents. Great people maybe, but not great parents. Crappy kid = Crappy parents. The quality of parenthood is defined solely by the quality of the child it produced. If you raised a bad kid then "I tried my best" doesn't cut it.

Just how many kids have you raised to full adulthood?? If it's zero then you have no dog in this discussion.

:wave:
 

Robus

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One way the parents likely contributed was by passing on genes for low IQ. Violent criminals are dumber as a group than the general population. I'll bet this perp had an IQ of about 85.
 

Mordor

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Then they weren't great parents. Great people maybe, but not great parents. Crappy kid = Crappy parents. The quality of parenthood is defined solely by the quality of the child it produced. If you raised a bad kid then "I tried my best" doesn't cut it.

Parents are, in a way, ultimately responsible for what their kids turn out to be. Parental influence is only part of the upbringing, and obviously can't be held accountable for biology-related issues, but I still have to agree with the above; If your kid was normal, then the fault may very well lie with you. You only shape a part of your child's life, but you are also responsible for correcting outside influences that can negatively impact their development. If this guy became a robber, and also had partners in crime (if despair had brought him here he probably wouldn't know people like those) then parental failure could be, at the very least, part of the outcome.

As for the incident itself, I'd wait for the investigation to progress a little more, just to make sure there are no hidden plot twists. But while I don't think it's really my place to say this stuff to grief-stricken parents, I nevertheless believe that their defense is rather poorly-founded; A (armed?) robbery is grounds for self-defense in your country, you should know that. As for the "personal" defense, while I can't say that it shouldn't be looked into at all, I still feel that, short of physically attacking someone, there are few better excuses to get someone (who dislikes you or not) to shoot you than sticking up their workplace.
 

Pop1655

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We're intertwining comments on the specific topic and parenting in general.
May or may not be different deals.
I do know this, they seem to come pre-wired for at least a part of it. My oldest daughter and my oldest grandson both came from the factory incredibly easy to raise. Two of the kindest spirits ever put here. Show em once and done. Their siblings, not so much. :laugh2:
 

Jeremiah

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People do have the right to defend themselves and I'm glad nobody else was hurt.

not trying to start a mess but I do genuinely want to know from some of you officers and ex-mil: if he was shot in the back of the left ear, would that automatically mean he was turning away or trying to get away? I only ask because that sometimes does have a bearing on these cases when they go to court. the lawyer could try to argue that he was no longer an immediate threat and therefore the shooting was unjustified
 

Bill Hicklin

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As long as the robber was armed and on the premises, he was legally an imminent threat and subject to defensive measures up to and including deadly force- from any angle.
 

Otto tune

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...and you personally have raised how many children for how many years? If you haven't, you're talking out your a$$.
I also haven't robbed a bank, assaulted women, or run for office, so I cannot, in your view, have an opinion on any of those topics either?
I see this argument all the time, usually to sidetrack someone else's opinion.
 

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