Humbucker gurus - closest sound to Gibson Classic '57 with A5 magnet swap?

[DHart]

I recently installed a Gibson Classic ’57 humbucker, which has no cover, in a Tele, NECK position. I modded this pickup using an AlNiCo 5 rough cast magnet (from Mojotone) replacing the original AlNiCo 2 magnet.

I prefer and play neck position pickups most of the time and like a clean Fendery tone. I don’t use distortion pedals or overdrives.

The tones I am getting from this Gibson Classic ’57 is golden to my ears. Bright, clean, and clear, but still creamy, round, and full, with no harshness at all.

I tried duplicating this tone with a Dimarzio PAF Master pickup, which while similar sounding, is a little brighter, and a little bit harsh sounding. The Gibson Classic ’57 with A5 is creamier in the high frequencies, no harshness at all - just sweet brightness.

I have another Tele build coming up and I’m considering another Gibson Classic ’57 (with magnet swap to AlNiCo rough cast 5 again), but rather than go to the trouble of doing that, I was wondering if there is an existing pickup that can get that same bright but creamy tone that my modded Classic ’57 pickup gives me.

Do any of you know of a humbucker pickup that would provide the tone which I’m describing? Like an uncovered Gibson Classic ’57 with A5 rough cast magnet?

 

[bassmannlespaulman]

Not with a alnico 5...i can't think of any. I know rewind got the creme burlee set which was kinda like his version of the classic 57. But like the classic 57 has alnico 2. Not alnico 5... maybe talk to him about his PAF-1 set with alnico 5s... that's are very rich and warm.

 

[CheopisIV]

A T-Top might be right up your alley.

 

[DHart]

Thanks for the input, guys. I am chatting with James about this.

As for T-Tops... I don't know a thing about them, but will look into it.

 

[rockinlespaul]

Also remember... what sounds like the cats meow in one guitar, may not in another. Wish I could offer some suggestions but I can't think of any. If your talking to James, he'll be able to nail it. Good luck!

 

[DHart]

Also remember... what sounds like the cats meow in one guitar, may not in another. Wish I could offer some suggestions but I can't think of any. If your talking to James, he'll be able to nail it. Good luck!

Yes, I know that subtle variations can be introduced by different instruments.

I do know that the Gibson Classic '57 with A5 magnet is the sound that I've been chasing. I think I would like it quite a lot with A4 magenta as well. In any event I know I'm thrilled with that.

James has been incredibly helpful and educated me a bit on what may be making the difference between then PAF Master and the Classic '57. (Offset!)

I'm going to see if I like the PAF Master any better with the A2 magnet I removed from the Classic '57. That might bring the PAF Master closer to my liking.

I still have to make a decision on what pickups will go in my upcoming Tele build. I may try a Mini Humbucker at the neck. And James has recommended a dual-rails pickup in the Tele bridge.

 

[DHart]

I asked some suppliers what pickup model they offer which might come closest to the sound of a Gibson Classic '57 and was told:

Rewind - Creme Brûlée
Dimarzio - PAF 36th Anniversary
Seymore Duncan - SH-1 59

Of them all, James was exceptionally helpful and courteous. I can see that his customer service is exceptional!

Dimarzio and Duncan didn't seem too thrilled that I was looking for a pickup from them that sounded like a Gibson Classic '57, but they at least responded. In a sense, I can't say that I blame them, however the Classic '57 is certainly something of an industry standard that countless folks have known and loved for a very long time. The Classic '57 does have a widely respected tone. They were helpful enough to identify a model in their line that they felt would approximate the Gibson Classic '57 tone, so I appreciate that.

I have time to brew on this decision. It is overwhelming when one considers how many different humbucker pickups there are to choose from.

 

[bassmannlespaulman]

Id go with the rewind pickup in that unlike dimarizo and seymour Duncan. James will tailor earthly to your liking. In fact you can call him personally and tell him exactly what you want over the phone.

Secondly i just find dimarozos to be shrill and ice pick which is a very common complaint about their pickups. Seymour Duncan sound good but not much better than a 57 classic. The rewind is going to have alot more dynamics and clarity. Have you looked at any videos of rewind creme burlee pickups? Hear this

Here it is with a alnico 4

Another clip with the original long alnico 2s i suspect

This is through a sg through a tweed twin again long alnico 2

Just to give you some ideas.

 

[DHart]

I think you’re right. And I have no doubt about the personalized service that James offers. He is amazing in that regard.

One thing I’m wondering; what is it about one pickup vs. another that makes it more detailed, articulate and clear? Is it due to having a low wind count?

I don’t think that Dimarzio can all be painted as shrill and ice picky. Perhaps this or that model, when used in certain guitars may be, but all Dimarzio in all guitars? No. The PAF Masters that I have in my Les Paul Standard are not shrill or ice picky at all. But the one in my Tele, yes. James attributes that to the steel bridge base plate and maple neck in the Tele. I’m going to replace the A5 magnet in it with an A2, which I think will take that edge off of it when used in the Tele.

Any given pickup will sound different in different guitars. The Gibson Classic ‘57 in a Les Paul or ES-335 sounds smooth, round, and warm-toned. Put it in a Tele and it sounds more lively, sparkly & brighter (but not shrill nor harsh). Put an A5 magnet in it and it sparkles even more.

I still wonder - what is it that would make two humbuckers of relatively similar output sound much different in terms of detail and clarity?

 

[bassmannlespaulman]

You'd have to ask a winder lol. Output or dc reading isn't really useful honestly. You could have two very low output pickup and it'll be butter smooth creamy and warm vs another be brighter and full of sparkle even though they're the same output. I think it may be how it's wound and how the coils offset each other. The batch of wire used... everything affects everything really. I'm not at all a expert on any of this I'm just a tone chaser like yourself lol.

 

[ReWind James]

Thanks for the kind words, guys. You folks are just too kind!

I still wonder - what is it that would make two humbuckers of relatively similar output sound much different in terms of detail and clarity?

That's where you get into the finer details. Similar to why two key lime pies from different bakeries can taste completely different from each other, even though they look the same and are made with basically the same ingredients.



Here's some of the bigger contributors to sonic differences:

Coil size and shape
Coil pattern
Hand wound or machine wound
Coil turns per layer
Coil offset
Turn counts
Wire tension
Wire copper core thickness (within a gauge)
Wire insulation thickness (within a gauge)
Wire copper core consistency along length of spool
Wire insulation thickness consistency along length of spool
Wire insulation type
Internal shape of bobbins
Method of starting coil
Pole screw and slug mass and shape
Pole screw and slug elemental makeup and treatment
Keeper bar elemental makeup
Keeper bar processing method
Magnet type
Magnet size/shape
Magnet foundry particulars
Magnet exact elemental makeup within a type
Magnet heating/cooling cycles variables
Magnetic field presence during heating/cooling treatment cycles
Magnetic charge strength/orientation
Ari gaps
Baseplate material/mass
Cover material
Cover thickness
Cover shape
Cover electroplating plating/shielding options
Wire dress
Potting variables


Most winders never get past "wire gauge, turn counts, and magnet type." ...and neither do most consumers, when shopping. Some pickup builders venture into screw and steel alloys, different wire types, or magnet charge strengths. A much smaller amount venture away from hand winding into experimenting with all the variables of machine winding coils. This is a really big reason my most modern pickups have some common sonic traits and often look (and cost) very similar to each other. Most of them are very similar to each other. ...and those primary variables that most winders design their pickups with are certainly the most significant in voicing pickups, so there's room to work under just those. It's all the other variables that are generally overlooked, however, that get into the finer and more complex details of the voicing to determine if one humbucker with the same turn counts of the same gauge wire over the same magnet type will sound far far different from another.




Both of the following are true:

- One could build two pickups to the exact same physical specs using different materials and they could sound quite significantly different.

- One could build two pickups using the same materials but to different physical specs that could sound quite significantly different.

In either of the above cases, the pickups may have the exact same DCR and magnet type as each other (so same commonly published specs) but sound incredibly different from each other.





So it's a little of everything that determines the final outcome but, in the simplest terms, it comes down to "materials and methods."

Methods of manufacturing the raw materials used AND methods of assembling those materials into finished working pickups.

 

[DHart]

Thanks for the kind words, guys. You folks are just too kind!

That's where you get into the finer details. Similar to why two key lime pies from different bakeries can taste completely different from each other, even though they look the same and are made with basically the same ingredients.

Hey James... thank you for that exhaustive list. It makes sense. I was hoping that you might chime in on the thread!

Perhaps I should ask a more specific question. You mentioned that the Creme Brûlée would have much more open, clear, and detailed sound than the Gibson Classic '57, which I don't doubt. I'm just wondering if there are a few more significant factors of difference in how you make your pickups, vs. a '57 or a Seth Lover, or a 36th Anniversary, that would make them more open, clear, and articulate in tone than other pickups? I ask just because I'm curious and interested in what the most significant differences are. I guess you might replay that everything you do is different than what the others do, but I'm thinking there might be just a few factors that contribute the most to clarity and articulation?

 

[DHart]

Id go with the rewind pickup in that unlike dimarizo and seymour Duncan. James will tailor earthly to your liking. In fact you can call him personally and tell him exactly what you want over the phone.

Secondly i just find dimarozos to be shrill and ice pick which is a very common complaint about their pickups. Seymour Duncan sound good but not much better than a 57 classic. The rewind is going to have alot more dynamics and clarity. Have you looked at any videos of rewind creme burlee pickups? Hear this

Here it is with a alnico 4

Another clip with the original long alnico 2s i suspect

This is through a sg through a tweed twin again long alnico 2

Just to give you some ideas.

bassmann... the problem with these clips and most clips, is that they are typically so distorted that they don't represent the pickup qualities well at all. With most tone samples that use any type of overdrive, almost any common pickup will sound just like that, unfortunately. The distortion completely masks all of the subtle tone qualities that a winder may work so hard to provide. I think that when playing with a lot of overdrive, nearly any reasonably well made and common humbucker can do the job just fine.

It is a rare tone sample that cleanly strums rich open chords, with no distortion at all, so as to display the fine points of a pickup's tonal qualities. Sadly, I don't hear anything in those three clips that tells me of the Creme Brulee's fine qualities.

 

[ReWind James]

I'm just wondering if there are a few more significant factors of difference in how you make your pickups, vs. a '57 or a Seth Lover, or a 36th Anniversary, that would make them more open, clear, and articulate in tone than other pickups?

What's in that list above is what makes the differences. Some of the more sonically significant factors among them are all of the coil and magnet variables, but the steel variables are also significant to a somewhat lesser, but still important, extent.

I wish it was as simple as just one or two things but it all counts. That's why a huge percentage of modern "PAF-style humbuckers" all fall under the same general umbrella of sounds (and there can be many different voicings under that umbrella but it has its bounds), then there's the small percentage of those that sit outside that umbrella and sound remarkably different in the clarity, particular nuances in voicing, range, note separation, complexity, etc. including vintage examples. Pickups that, in a blind comparison, jump out and grab your attention, showing you areas the others fall short.

When you take apart a Gibson, Duncan, or DiMarzio it may look similar to a real PAF and have the same general parts in the same general places but when you really take it apart, all the way down to the end of the coils and examine every part, there is nothing actually the same. The baseplates can be similar and the braided shield and maple spacer can be similar, but every other part and most assembly methods are completely different.

In some designs, I'm just paying attention to all the various materials and methods of vintage examples that I like, and putting every bit of care into studying and replicating each part to a really obsessive degree. Then sometimes some adjustments still need to be made here and there to get the sound right. In others, I'm taking what I've learned from doing this and applying it in my own ways to create something else "vintage voiced" but with my own spin on it, bringing out the parts I like from this or that.

I'm not sure if that really answered the question or made much sense, outside my own head. Sometimes I'm great at explaining things. Today I've been out doing yard work in the desert sun and feel like my brain is a fried egg.

 

[DHart]

Let me preface all of my comments by stating that I am referring to neck position pickups only. I rarely ever use the bridge pickups in my guitars. And I play a clean (Eric Johnson-ish) style.

In the Telecaster neck position, replacing the A5 magnet in the Dimarzio PAF Master with an A2 magnet did tame down the harshness at a great degree. It sounds good with chords, especially in the lower register. Soloing around the 9th to 12th frets (a favorite place for me) the PAF Master is still a bit brighter and edgier than I prefer. And it's sounding more "scooped" in the mids than I prefer. Or, the accentuated highs make the mids seem reduced. The lows are very strong, especially as my final output transducers are a pair of M-Audio 8" Studio Monitors, which give a rich, full range fidelity, even at quiet bedroom levels.

I can roll off the tone control on the guitar a bit to reduce the bright edge, but then the tone seems somewhat unnaturally "dull" sounding.

Perhaps an EQ pedal would make ALL the difference for me?

Here's the deal: I think pickups tend to sound their best with both the guitar's volume pot and tone pot on "10". So, I'd prefer to not have to turn the tone control down from 10, to tame a harsh brightness - it just sounds muffled when I do that. I like a neck pickup that sounds great with the tone control at 10.

In the Tele, I like Gibson Classic '57 tone very much. The PAF Master, not as much. Not that I think that either is necessarily the "pinnacle "of humbuckers, but I do very much appreciate the tones I'm getting from the Classic '57 in the Tele. Most of us are constantly searching for "our tone", aren't we.

It seems that I've become MUCH pickier about "my tone" in recent times. It's a bit of a curse, I think.

 

[ReWind James]

If you're going to play with everything on ten and want a warmer sound, you can benefit from (among other things) hotter coils, in that pickup. With hotter coils, you get a warmer and more vocal sound. What you loose is the flatter frequency response, a brighter sound when you roll back the volume (there are rare exceptions, here), and some treble. Since those aren't priorities for you, it would work out well without them.

Talking strictly about the PAF Master in your situation, one could rewind the coils with a warmer sounding type of wire, wind the coils hotter, reduce the coil offset, use coil patterns that sound more midrangey and compliment each other to bring out certain frequencies and get it closer to your goal. A different type of A2 magnet, selected for a warmer, midrange-heavy voicing, and replacing the steel parts with some that are closer to iron and have more mass would also compliment the goals you have.

You'd have basically replaced the entire pickup at that point, but it may give you some idea of how different changes in material and method will change the resulting sound of a pickup.

 

[DHart]

If you're going to play with everything on ten and want a warmer sound, you can benefit from (among other things) hotter coils, in that pickup. With hotter coils, you get a warmer and more vocal sound. What you loose is the flatter frequency response, a brighter sound when you roll back the volume (there are rare exceptions, here), and some treble. Since those aren't priorities for you, it would work out well without them.

Talking strictly about the PAF Master in your situation, one could rewind the coils with a warmer sounding type of wire, wind the coils hotter, reduce the coil offset, use coil patterns that sound more midrangey and compliment each other to bring out certain frequencies and get it closer to your goal. A different type of A2 magnet, selected for a warmer, midrange-heavy voicing, and replacing the steel parts with some that are closer to iron and have more mass would also compliment the goals you have.

You'd have basically replaced the entire pickup at that point, but it may give you some idea of how different changes in material and method will change the resulting sound of a pickup.

James... I understand how that could make the PAF Master into something I might really love. And it would be informative with regard to what parts influence what. If I had a winder (the machine) I might actually be so inclined to give it a try. But with all of that work and material, no point going down that road when an entirely new pickup made by someone like you would be so much more efficient to bring about. I could spend some good money and countless days trying different things and then still want to buy a tried and true pickup design from a pro winder. I think trying to rework the pickup would be fun, though! As a tinkerer, I would enjoy that. Modding the PAF Master with an A2 magnet was simple and effective in achieving a tone that I like.

 

[DHart]

Well... familiarity doesn't always breed contempt... sometimes it breeds appreciation.

As I spend more time with the modified PAF Master (with AlNiCo 2 magnet replacing the A5) I'm finding I like the tone now. It's still brighter than the Gibson Classic '57 (which has an A5 magnet) which is fine, because it is no longer harsh, nor edgy. And as I think more about it, we have different guitars to give us different tones, not to all give us the same tones. So, I'm going to stick with the PAF Master A2 in this Tele now.

So... on to selecting pickups for my upcoming Tele build.

Already having a variety of humbucker and single coil pickups in various Teles, I'm thinking of increasing the tonal variety: perhaps a Mini Humbucker in the neck position and (as James has recommended) a side-by-side dual blade noiseless Tele bridge pickup. I know very little about either of these choices (have never owned either type), so the education process begins anew. Any thoughts or recommendations to consider?

 

[jlee]

Whichever direction you decide to go, I would go with James. He has encyclopedic knowledge and the fact that he shares this info is cool as f**k! I have a set of his Low Winds in a Bacchus SG and they’re so good! I swapped the bridge A2 with A5, but they are so rich and complex. One of my favorite sets and they make this guitar one of my favorites as well.

 

[DHart]

Whichever direction you decide to go, I would go with James. He has encyclopedic knowledge and the fact that he shares this info is cool as f**k! I have a set of his Low Winds in a Bacchus SG and they’re so good! I swapped the bridge A2 with A5, but they are so rich and complex. One of my favorite sets and they make this guitar one of my favorites as well.

I agree. James is kind, gracious, and VERY helpful. And no doubt that his pickups sound great.

In the end, I may need to conserve "dollars" a bit, however. But his products certainly are well-liked among the humbucker community!