How to ship a guitar LEGALLY with CITES permits.

dnabbet2

Junior Member
Joined
May 18, 2018
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
I did buy it before January 1 but I'm looking at specifications, including Gibson's, for a 2015 ES-175D 1959 VOS and finding only "rosewood" or "dark rosewood" -- any idea how I can find out if it's Indian rosewood? And thanks for the help!
 

dnabbet2

Junior Member
Joined
May 18, 2018
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
I did buy it before January 1 but I'm looking at specifications, including Gibson's, for a 2015 ES-175D 1959 VOS and finding only "rosewood" or "dark rosewood" -- any idea how I can find out if it's Indian rosewood? And thanks for the help!
I'm seeing some assertions that the fretboard is dalbergia latifolia. Please confirm, anyone, 'cause I understand that is Indian rosewood. If the bridge is not, I have one in ebony around here somewhere and I can swap that out. And thanks again for any help.
 

alk-3

MLP Sponsor
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Messages
2,050
Reaction score
3,264
if its a dalbergia it's cites appendix ii - with the exception of Dalbergia Nigra (brazilian rosewood) which would be appendix i
 

Notts1965

Junior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2015
Messages
6
Reaction score
9
The UK legislation is slightly more tricky to navigate. In the UK to sell an older or vintage guitar containing any Brazilian rosewood even in the internal UK market a further article 10 certificate is required. The article 10 certificate can only be issued for guitars pre 1982. In order to get the certificate the owner has to prove that they purchased the guitar pre 92. In the UK it is currently illegal to offer for sale, or even display a guitar containing Brazilian rosewood without an article 10. It is not illegal or agains any CITES conventions to own a guitar in the UK containing Brazilian rosewood. If selling an older guitar with Brazilian an article 10 needs to be applied for and the authorities often refuse issue of the certificate. A guitar can't be advertised or displayed without displaying the certificate number.

The tricky part comes into play when attempting to bring guitars into the UK containing Brazilian rosewood. If importing a guitar from the US etc with BR in addition to the export and import CITES paperwork the buyer and seller have to prove that the guitar has previously been in the UK pre 1992. This is virtually impossible to prove.
 

Lefty Adams

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Messages
1,420
Reaction score
678
Hey All. I'm not really sure where to post this thread, as it really pertains to anyone with a rosewood guitar these days..if it belongs elsewhere maybe a Md can move it...


This is a post I’ve sort of wanted to do for a while now, and finally just got the urge to do it. This will probably be a pretty long post, but for those who are interested, it will hopefully be helpful.


My hope is to lay out the correct way to deal with CITES when shipping a guitar. There is so much misinformation about this floating around (mostly) guitar forums, and so many people interjecting completely false information, I thought maybe I should go ahead and write out what is actually required. This is not an opinion or my best guess, this is factual information. I ship CITES guitars regularly both commercially and direct to end users.


Most of you will only ever have to deal with Non commercial shipments (in other words, you’re either selling or buying a guitar from an individual as an individual, not as a business, or to resell etc.).


In this example I am the shipper residing in Canada and am sending a guitar to a private purchaser in the USA. The species in question is Brazilian Rosewood, but this also applies to all other species of true rosewood. The same basic procedure exists when shipping from the U.S.A to Canada, but every country has its own set of rules the follow to enforce CITES.


Disclaimer!!


PLEASE!! If you plan to comment something along the lines of “Ahh, just ship the guitar, the government sucks anyway!!” or “this is just some cash grab over reach etc etc.” or “what the f#@$! The tree is already dead, how can permits bring it back to life??” please just save it. There are so many places you can add your completely devoid of fact opinion without cluttering up a thread that I hope will be a source for FACTUAL information by those who know and who have experience doing it legally.


If you make the decision to ship a guitar internationally without the correct paperwork, that is your choice, but there are risks just like there are when you break any law. This thread is for those who wish to ship correctly and legally.



Okay, so lets get started..


In a nut shell, for personal shipments from CANADA to the U.S.A you only need a valid export permit. For commercial shipments you need a valid export permit AND a valid IMPORT permit issued by the destination country (U.S.A) that is a whole other matter requiring a lot of other work.


First (and this is often the hardest part of the whole process) you have to have rosewood with a paper trail dating to before the wood was banned under the CITES convention – OR!! Dating to before either Canada and the USA recognizes the need for controlling the trade of the species, whichever is earliest.

The USA considers the cutoff for legally trading Brazilian rosewood internationally to be 1992, which is the date CITES declared the species to be in danger of extinction.

In Canada that date is much more difficult because we consider the species to be in danger after end of year 1973.


Providing proof of age is relatively easy in the case of a vintage guitar, as you can provide serial numbers. For more recent Indian rosewood guitars (dating from before jan 1st 2018) you can simply provide your purchase receipt dating to before January 1st 2018. - NOTE: when buying used guitars always ask for a copy of the original recipt. this should become standard practice for guitar owners going forward as CITES is not going away, and one day you may need to prove your guitars age. Just pop a copy of the recipt in the case pocket and be done with it.

When it comes to raw lumber, or newly built guitars from old lumber, there are a few ways to prove your wood is legal. One way is to produce invoices that date to a time period pre-ban. Of course most people don’t hold onto paperwork that long, so this is likely going to be very difficult.

Another method is to find someone who has personal knowledge of your specific lumber having entered the country before the ban and have that person write a sworn statement. You will need a lawyer to do this, and have it signed by the person who has personal knowledge. If you ask a lawyer about this, they will know how to prepare a proper declaration. It must be very specific including dates, locations, and back story about the lumber, and any knowledge of it having changed hands before and after this persons involvement.


Here is an example of a sworn declaration:




Once you have your declaration, you are free to apply for your CITES export permit.

Here is what that looks like, filled out.










You can email this along with your declaration and any other proof of origin to the address on the permit.

Be sure to fill out your address and the recipients address correctly and it should not be a work address, it should be the residence of the recipient.


After a day or two you’ll get an email acknowledging your application. That looks like this:




Then a couple of weeks later, youll receive your permit in the mail.




It will contain two original permits and one copy for your records.

It will look like this, except WITHOUT the blue stamp.




At this point you will have to setup the shipment, so get online with the fedex website and create your shipping labels.


You cannot ship CITES materials through the postal service (technically you can, but you'll need to hire a broker to deal with customs on your behalf which is very complex). So it must be through a courier service, and in the case of FedEx must be shipped express (not ground).


You’ll be given your tracking number when your shipment is setup. Your tracking number is your WAYBILL number. You’ll have to write it on both original permits in the space provided.

You will now have to take both original copies of your CITES export permit AND the guitar to your nearest “port of entry” which is your nearest boarder crossing point. This can be an international airport, or a land crossing. You will have to speak to a customs official (in my case, a CBSA officer) and have them endorse the permits. The endorsement is the blue stamp above.

The officer will keep one of the permits, and give you the other permit. The officer will send their copy back to the CITES office to be kept on record.

You then take your remaining copy and head home to pack the guitar up to be shipped.

Once you have your labels all printed out, make sure you have a commercial invoice (FedEx will provide it based on your shipment information) you place your permit into a separate envelope and write clearly on the sealed envelope as follows:



Place that in its own separate clear sticky envelope and tape it shut.. you don’t want anyone opening this, as its your only original copy, and must not be lost.
This copy is only to be romoved by the recipient country's enforcement officer and stamped, and then this copy is returned to the originating countries office to remain on record as having entered the receiving country legally.

It's also a good idea to write directly on the box your CITES permit number etc. as follows:




You will also need to fill out a LACEY form this is for a les paul style guitar, with all the species and amounts etc. as follows:




And that’s it, you can now ship your guitar safely!
If your shipment contains more than one box, you should always write the CITES permit number clearly on each box in case they get separated.

Also note that although all of this takes a lot of time, it actually does not cost any money. So its obviously not a cash grab by any stretch..


Hope that helps out some people, even if it only serves as a source of information.
Hey thanks great guide. I have my eye on an R0 in the States with a brazilian board, and I haven't conversated with the shop in question if they would actually do this to ship to the UK, but this gives me an insight into whats involved, thanks.
 

Lefty Adams

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Messages
1,420
Reaction score
678
The UK legislation is slightly more tricky to navigate. In the UK to sell an older or vintage guitar containing any Brazilian rosewood even in the internal UK market a further article 10 certificate is required. The article 10 certificate can only be issued for guitars pre 1982. In order to get the certificate the owner has to prove that they purchased the guitar pre 92. In the UK it is currently illegal to offer for sale, or even display a guitar containing Brazilian rosewood without an article 10. It is not illegal or agains any CITES conventions to own a guitar in the UK containing Brazilian rosewood. If selling an older guitar with Brazilian an article 10 needs to be applied for and the authorities often refuse issue of the certificate. A guitar can't be advertised or displayed without displaying the certificate number.

The tricky part comes into play when attempting to bring guitars into the UK containing Brazilian rosewood. If importing a guitar from the US etc with BR in addition to the export and import CITES paperwork the buyer and seller have to prove that the guitar has previously been in the UK pre 1992. This is virtually impossible to prove.
Thats very interesting, thanks!
 

Subterfuge

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
1,244
Reaction score
1,779
The UK legislation is slightly more tricky to navigate. In the UK to sell an older or vintage guitar containing any Brazilian rosewood even in the internal UK market a further article 10 certificate is required. The article 10 certificate can only be issued for guitars pre 1982. In order to get the certificate the owner has to prove that they purchased the guitar pre 92. In the UK it is currently illegal to offer for sale, or even display a guitar containing Brazilian rosewood without an article 10. It is not illegal or agains any CITES conventions to own a guitar in the UK containing Brazilian rosewood. If selling an older guitar with Brazilian an article 10 needs to be applied for and the authorities often refuse issue of the certificate. A guitar can't be advertised or displayed without displaying the certificate number.

The tricky part comes into play when attempting to bring guitars into the UK containing Brazilian rosewood. If importing a guitar from the US etc with BR in addition to the export and import CITES paperwork the buyer and seller have to prove that the guitar has previously been in the UK pre 1992. This is virtually impossible to prove.
Geez, talk about a clusterf%ck, no wonder people resort to smuggling items...
 

Al Walker

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2014
Messages
1,297
Reaction score
1,351
I just won't sell a guitar outside the Lower 48 US. I had a few project Squires with Rosewood boards for sale and a few Canadian gentlemen interested (even though I quoted the above in the ad). One insisted, but, backed down when I explained the hassle. Just not worth it for a $150 to $200 guitar.
 

Gold Tone

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Messages
167
Reaction score
239
Fantastic info!! Thank you! As a Canadian buying guitars and occasionally shipping this is hugely useful!

BTW I agree that “the tree is already dead” so let’s move along...but the reasoning is different than you or I see it

By supporting the sale of, yes old and very long ago dead, tree products...we support the demand...this encourages black market and illegal harvest to increase supply.

Same as tortoise picks made from tortoise shell products 100+ years old. A market for these encourages a market for newly harvested tortoise shell. When 3rd World countries population lives in poverty...you need to feed your family, this type of illegal market survives and is bigger than ever.

Once species are eliminated...just watch the price of a guitar with rosewood sky rocket
 

LesserPaul

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
125
Reaction score
68
2 lefty dealers and a well known Nashville shop were not interested in e buying an R4 or R6. With a 3rd added on fr import duty its killed it.
 




Top