Historic Gibson Faux Bumblebee Caps

Sitedrifter

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It is well known that good capacitors behave all the same. The only criteria is the capacity. If you buy a styroflex capacitor for some cents or max. a dollar or Euro it is more than enough. All the 'vintage' reissues and the like are nothing better than new capacitors. please remember that at that 'good old' times Companies like Gibson or Fender just used capacitors which they were able to get (cheap). There is no 'magic', sorry! Over 30 years of guitar playing and modding leads me to believe only in physics and listening. If somebody would like to buy 'special' capacitors and believes in it, just do so - it is your personal decision. Here is a nice video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=92G-jw4TqS4.:thumb:
While I agree it is all magical mojo in peoples minds, you have just opened the gates of hell with the believers.. :laugh2:
 

MATTM

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It is well known that good capacitors behave all the same. The only criteria is the capacity. If you buy a styroflex capacitor for some cents or max. a dollar or Euro it is more than enough. All the 'vintage' reissues and the like are nothing better than new capacitors. please remember that at that 'good old' times Companies like Gibson or Fender just used capacitors which they were able to get (cheap). There is no 'magic', sorry! Over 30 years of guitar playing and modding leads me to believe only in physics and listening. If somebody would like to buy 'special' capacitors and believes in it, just do so - it is your personal decision. Here is a nice video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=92G-jw4TqS4.:thumb:
Not my findings at all, but no need to be sorry :)
 

jerry47

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The real drag about this little sham is that the unsuspecting buyer
goes' and spends around $80.00 for this RI BB Cap Thinking full well he's getting something special, A recreation of the great Gibson's history in the tone field, But instead he receives what we have pictured above, Now I've been walking through the local store parking lot and had some guy try to sell me fake gold before & in this area its expected, But I never thought i'd see Gibson in the same parking lot. I was one of the guy's that spent money on these thinking they were something else, Plain & simple I felt bad about it all the way around. So what's next? We've all seen example's of things coming out of Gibson that really should have never left the factory, I'll even take it one step farther, I know for a fact that guitars have been bought with defect's that shouldn't be there, But some of us just keep quite because we don't want to stir the pot, Or have the proverbial rock thrown at our head every time we look up. But in saying this I have faith that everything will correct itself in time, And hopefully we'll get what was advertised. I mean these are some of the most beautiful guitars on the plant, Lets keep em in the light. With out worrying about what mite be inside.
 

alexvdl

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Tone pots.... what's that? Oh... the two knobs all the way at the back... nah I never touch them :fingersx:
 

El Kabong

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CAUTION - DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED OR HAVE IMPAIRED HEARING.

As they say... "ignorance is bliss" and for all those peeps believing that a cap is a cap regardless of its components... enjoy your ignorance... but you'd better think twice about going around preaching that that's the way it is simply because you are unable to hear the difference... because it just is not so.

I really get a kick out of these "I've been an electrical engineer and amp tech for over 50 years, so I know what I'm talking about posts... that means you are what, 80 years old? Its no wonder you can't hear the difference... you probably can't hear the person across the room asking if you want a nice bowl of creamed spinach with your prune juice. You should see if the government will give you disability compensation because if you are a musician... that is exactly what your inability to hear the difference is.

Not only can I, and millions of other people actually hear the difference, but if you examine different caps through an oscilloscope or spectrometer you can actually see the difference. If your response to that is that we are not only hearing things, but seeing things as well... then you might as well check yourself into the funny farm because you are delusional as well as hearing impaired... and it must really suck to be you!

As far as Gibson using scam caps, I don't really see it as such. First off you have to consider the entire electrical system as a whole, not just as a collection of parts. The pickups have to be matched not only with each other, but with the caps and pots as well. This complete electrical system is what Gibson is looking at... not the pattern in the flame on the wood used as spacers in the pups. They have created an entire self-contained system that recreates the "magic" of the '59 Burst to the best of their ability (whatever that may equate to). For those that need reminding, this is not a $300,000 '59 Burst you are buying, it is a recreation using modern availability and technology.

The simple act of changing caps, changes the dynamics of the entire system. The balance is gone and if you are going to start fiddling around with the innards, you need to bear that in mind. Different pickups respond differently to different caps and pots. Its as simple as that, and unless you have the ability to create an entire self-contained system yourself or understand the inherent dynamics, you probably shouldn't be messing around inside.

Gibson has done just that, off the shelf Lesters have a perfectly balanced system, regardless of what the caps are made of, and they sound the way people want and expect them to sound... otherwise guess what? No one would be buying them. I am of the increasingly rarer and rarer opinion that Gibson knows a helluva lot more about what's happening then a bunch of backseat guitar playing wannabes.

Okay, with that said my little rant is over... you may return to your regularly scheduled feeding of horse crap by people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

Now for those who ignored the first sentence... bring on the flames!
 

Sitedrifter

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Well I fall into the camp that does believe caps can make a difference but oil-in-paper caps are not special and the right modern cap can give the tone some people want as well as oil-in-paper caps can make your Les Paul sound poorly. There is no magic with oil-in-paper caps and if you get a pair that does cause the pickups to sound awesome, you can find modern (non PIO) caps to do the same thing.

But what do I know.
 

El Kabong

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Well I fall into the camp that does believe caps can make a difference but oil-in-paper caps are not special and the right modern cap can give the tone some people want as well as oil-in-paper caps can make your Les Paul sound poorly. There is no magic with oil-in-paper caps and if you get a pair that does cause the pickups to sound awesome, you can find modern (non PIO) caps to do the same thing.

But what do I know.
You're right... it all depends on the electrical system (including the pickups) taken as a whole. Even the CCs and Sigs come with those new Polypropylene Bees and right off the shelf they sound pretty darn good. If you change the pickups... there;s a good chance you will need to change the pots and caps as well, as the whole system needs to be balanced to whatever spec sound you are after. I never tended to like Burstbuckers and/or Custom Buckers, partially because they spec out all over the place, but probably more so as they are no doubt designed to run with more modern caps. :hmm:
 

crompo

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CAUTION - DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED OR HAVE IMPAIRED HEARING.

As they say... "ignorance is bliss" and for all those peeps believing that a cap is a cap regardless of its components... enjoy your ignorance... but you'd better think twice about going around preaching that that's the way it is simply because you are unable to hear the difference... because it just is not so.

I really get a kick out of these "I've been an electrical engineer and amp tech for over 50 years, so I know what I'm talking about posts... that means you are what, 80 years old? Its no wonder you can't hear the difference... you probably can't hear the person across the room asking if you want a nice bowl of creamed spinach with your prune juice. You should see if the government will give you disability compensation because if you are a musician... that is exactly what your inability to hear the difference is.

Not only can I, and millions of other people actually hear the difference, but if you examine different caps through an oscilloscope or spectrometer you can actually see the difference. If your response to that is that we are not only hearing things, but seeing things as well... then you might as well check yourself into the funny farm because you are delusional as well as hearing impaired... and it must really suck to be you!

As far as Gibson using scam caps, I don't really see it as such. First off you have to consider the entire electrical system as a whole, not just as a collection of parts. The pickups have to be matched not only with each other, but with the caps and pots as well. This complete electrical system is what Gibson is looking at... not the pattern in the flame on the wood used as spacers in the pups. They have created an entire self-contained system that recreates the "magic" of the '59 Burst to the best of their ability (whatever that may equate to). For those that need reminding, this is not a $300,000 '59 Burst you are buying, it is a recreation using modern availability and technology.

The simple act of changing caps, changes the dynamics of the entire system. The balance is gone and if you are going to start fiddling around with the innards, you need to bear that in mind. Different pickups respond differently to different caps and pots. Its as simple as that, and unless you have the ability to create an entire self-contained system yourself or understand the inherent dynamics, you probably shouldn't be messing around inside.

Gibson has done just that, off the shelf Lesters have a perfectly balanced system, regardless of what the caps are made of, and they sound the way people want and expect them to sound... otherwise guess what? No one would be buying them. I am of the increasingly rarer and rarer opinion that Gibson knows a helluva lot more about what's happening then a bunch of backseat guitar playing wannabes.

Okay, with that said my little rant is over... you may return to your regularly scheduled feeding of horse crap by people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

Now for those who ignored the first sentence... bring on the flames!
Really ?

:laugh2:
 

dwk302

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This is such a dirty move. Time for a class action! Who wants to be lead plaintiff??
 

jamman

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CAUTION - DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED OR HAVE IMPAIRED HEARING.





As far as Gibson using scam caps, I don't really see it as such. First off you have to consider the entire electrical system as a whole, not just as a collection of parts. The pickups have to be matched not only with each other, but with the caps and pots as well. This complete electrical system is what Gibson is looking at... not the pattern in the flame on the wood used as spacers in the pups. They have created an entire self-contained system that recreates the "magic" of the '59 Burst to the best of their ability (whatever that may equate to). For those that need reminding, this is not a $300,000 '59 Burst you are buying, it is a recreation using modern availability and technology.

The simple act of changing caps, changes the dynamics of the entire system. The balance is gone and if you are going to start fiddling around with the innards, you need to bear that in mind. Different pickups respond differently to different caps and pots. Its as simple as that, and unless you have the ability to create an entire self-contained system yourself or understand the inherent dynamics, you probably shouldn't be messing around inside.Gibson has done just that, off the shelf Lesters have a perfectly balanced system, regardless of what the caps are made of, and they sound the way people want and expect them to sound... otherwise guess what? No one would be buying them. I am of the increasingly rarer and rarer opinion that Gibson knows a helluva lot more about what's happening then a bunch of backseat guitar playing wannabes.



Now for those who ignored the first sentence... bring on the flames!
No Flames , But ... Are you joking ???? Do you really believe Gibson tests every pickup it makes and then sorts them out to be balanced ? Then sorts out the whole "system" to be balanced . 'Cause , "That's " a JoKe ,,,right there. :wave:
Do you have any ,,Idea of how much time (='s money ) it would take to do that to every CS Historic line Re-issue guitar Gibson makes every year ???

The reason many call Gibson BB caps a scam is because Gibson boasts about how close they make Their Historic Line of Guitars to the Originals . They are not even PIO caps . And come with a price that's more then Double what a set of Vintage caps can be bought for .

Cheap, is what Gibson has always used for the Original LP's and every LP since . LP's were never considered "Top of the Line "guitars when first produced in the 50's . Arch Tops were and still are . But You Pay for that . Big .

How is it some LP's suck how they sound direct from the factory . I've played more then I can remember, like that . You think Gibson Tone balances every Guitar before it leaves the factory ???? And re-works the 1's that don't meet a set standard ????? Really ,,Please .:laugh2: Gibson sets up every guitar to pre-made determined spec and then tests it to make sure it functions correctly . Then out to packing and shipped .
I see 20K MAP, LP's right around the corner ,If Gibson went by your specs.

swapping pups ,going by what you stated . doesn't have a possibility of making what the owner thinks is better ??? Or wants it to sound like????

Shame on you for that . Your not that smart .....that much I know . No one is , when it comes to personal taste since it IS completely SUBJECTIVE .

You think Gibson uses the best Pots in it's guitars ???Really ???? BS , Most I've tried ,suck and for a few $$$ can be upgraded for much better . And still made by the same company CTS ,using tighter tolerances , FACT.

The braided cable used by Gibson can also be purchased , I have over 200' of it . Bet if you measured it on a oscilloscope or listened through headphones , you could not tell me which was and which was not the Original installed Gibson Wire .

Dude ,,,it ain't Rocket science and Caps don not effect the loop much if your control is always left on 10 .

"perfectly balanced system":laugh2: OK. we're all allowed to have our opinions.

Agree, Gibson does know more then most of us .....But it's not what you know . It's what you do with your knowledge ...... many smart people in the world ..... many , Just look around a see all the crap in the world . Real smart . Sure ....:wave:

.
 

El Kabong

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I think you're reading me wrong. I don't think Gibson tests its pots, pickups or caps... nor are they even close to being the best. What I was trying to say, was that the entire system they use, i.e., the pots/caps/pickups, all work together as a team and the end result is a good sounding system. Good... not great... but most people can't tell the difference... those who can tell the difference want to put some real PIO caps in, some audio taper pots and some decent pickups... if the ones they have don't suit them. So whether the caps are ceramic or PIO, they sound good enough within that system. If you remove one component of that system (like the caps) you need to replace them with something that works equally well (if not hopefully better) than what you are replacing. Again, you have to keep the whole system in mind as they work together as a whole. Peeps who keep everything dimed won't notice any difference with caps, and perfectly balanced refers to a system that balances the profit Gibson is willing to settle for versus the coin that folks are willing to shell out for it.

I think we're on the same page here as I agree 100% with everything you said and still to my original rantish conclusions... :thumb:
 

boyscout

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I probably should not be at this dance. In *ONLINE* listening I'm unable to hear the differences caps make, but believe completely that others can hear the differences. (I actually ordered some Jonesy pot/cap sets but sold the guitars they were destined for soon after they arrived. Since my remaining LPs are high-end enough that I don't want to mod them, I'm stuck in the middle for now.)

However I wanted to throw in my oar against the notion that what Gibson is doing is anything LIKE honorable or acceptable. Molding very ordinary cheap capacitors into plastic cases painted to look like bumblebees, calling them bumblebees and pretending they are special, and selling them for 500%-800% of cost, is nothing better than a cheap and dirty scam. There oughtta be a law.
 

KenG

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CAUTION - DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED OR HAVE IMPAIRED HEARING.

As they say... "ignorance is bliss" and for all those peeps believing that a cap is a cap regardless of its components... enjoy your ignorance... but you'd better think twice about going around preaching that that's the way it is simply because you are unable to hear the difference... because it just is not so.

I really get a kick out of these "I've been an electrical engineer and amp tech for over 50 years, so I know what I'm talking about posts... that means you are what, 80 years old? Its no wonder you can't hear the difference... you probably can't hear the person across the room asking if you want a nice bowl of creamed spinach with your prune juice. You should see if the government will give you disability compensation because if you are a musician... that is exactly what your inability to hear the difference is.

Not only can I, and millions of other people actually hear the difference, but if you examine different caps through an oscilloscope or spectrometer you can actually see the difference. If your response to that is that we are not only hearing things, but seeing things as well... then you might as well check yourself into the funny farm because you are delusional as well as hearing impaired... and it must really suck to be you!

As far as Gibson using scam caps, I don't really see it as such. First off you have to consider the entire electrical system as a whole, not just as a collection of parts. The pickups have to be matched not only with each other, but with the caps and pots as well. This complete electrical system is what Gibson is looking at... not the pattern in the flame on the wood used as spacers in the pups. They have created an entire self-contained system that recreates the "magic" of the '59 Burst to the best of their ability (whatever that may equate to). For those that need reminding, this is not a $300,000 '59 Burst you are buying, it is a recreation using modern availability and technology.

The simple act of changing caps, changes the dynamics of the entire system. The balance is gone and if you are going to start fiddling around with the innards, you need to bear that in mind. Different pickups respond differently to different caps and pots. Its as simple as that, and unless you have the ability to create an entire self-contained system yourself or understand the inherent dynamics, you probably shouldn't be messing around inside.

Gibson has done just that, off the shelf Lesters have a perfectly balanced system, regardless of what the caps are made of, and they sound the way people want and expect them to sound... otherwise guess what? No one would be buying them. I am of the increasingly rarer and rarer opinion that Gibson knows a helluva lot more about what's happening then a bunch of backseat guitar playing wannabes.

Okay, with that said my little rant is over... you may return to your regularly scheduled feeding of horse crap by people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

Now for those who ignored the first sentence... bring on the flames!
Never let an advanced education, facts or science influence your beliefs.
 

David Mccarroll

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The real drag about this little sham is that the unsuspecting buyer
goes' and spends around $80.00 for this RI BB Cap Thinking full well he's getting something special, A recreation of the great Gibson's history in the tone field, But instead he receives what we have pictured above, Now I've been walking through the local store parking lot and had some guy try to sell me fake gold before & in this area its expected, But I never thought i'd see Gibson in the same parking lot. I was one of the guy's that spent money on these thinking they were something else, Plain & simple I felt bad about it all the way around. So what's next? We've all seen example's of things coming out of Gibson that really should have never left the factory, I'll even take it one step farther, I know for a fact that guitars have been bought with defect's that shouldn't be there, But some of us just keep quite because we don't want to stir the pot, Or have the proverbial rock thrown at our head every time we look up. But in saying this I have faith that everything will correct itself in time, And hopefully we'll get what was advertised. I mean these are some of the most beautiful guitars on the plant, Lets keep em in the light. With out worrying about what mite be inside.
Ah yes ....... like, why are the Collector's Choice models up to twice as much as a regular CS 59? I mean, according to Gibson they are all handmade to the finest quality. Really, not stirring the pot or anything, I simply cannot find any way for Gibson to justify the price difference - maybe select specific tops to roughly match a particular guitar as they crack open the case full of the thousands that they purchase? Surely that doesn't account for the difference? Matching a finish? They already do Ice Tea, Slow Ice Tea, Ice Tea with Lemon, Ice Tea with a drop of Whisky, Ice Tea soaked in old socks - can it be so difficult to match a particular 'Burst when they already do so many?
 

David Mccarroll

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Oh yeah - forgot to add my rejoinder - because, of course, someone will pay it!
 

David Mccarroll

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Never let an advanced education, facts or science influence your beliefs.
Yes, the poster you speak of knows the Earth is flat, don't pay attention to all that science crap - where'd that ever get anyone?

Wonder if he owns a cell phone? I hear the old bakelite ones were so much better.
 

David Mccarroll

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Cheap, is what Gibson has always used for the Original LP's and every LP since . LP's were never considered "Top of the Line "guitars when first produced in the 50's . Arch Tops were and still are . But You Pay for that . Big .

.
And even at that it's worth bearing in mind that a 1959 Super 400, which cost, like, the equivalent of a trillion bucks in 1959 used EXACTLY the same electronic components as a Les Paul (they only made one model of humbucking pickup, pole piece spacing notwithstanding). Despite the probably much higher level of human touch in 1959 Gibson were then, and before then, and today, a volume production company.

As for any form of testing, I am not entirely convinced they even plug in every guitar made before they leave the factory - the brand new Explorer I tried for an out of town friend of mine simply electrically did not work, straight from the factory.
 

EpiLP1985

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Never let an advanced education, facts or science influence your beliefs.
Great response.

If the "magic" of old PIO caps is that they bleed less treble to ground, then just use a different value modern cap to compensate. No "magic" there at all, just inferior characteristics from a bygone era. Save your money and play more.
 

Sitedrifter

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If the "magic" of old PIO caps is that they bleed less treble to ground, then just use a different value modern cap to compensate. No "magic" there at all, just inferior characteristics from a bygone era. Save your money and play more.
:applause::applause:
 


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