Grain filling ash question

[waygorked]

I have a nice roasted swamp ash body that I am ultimately finishing in Tru Oil. I completed a nice hand-rubbed tobacco burst, hit it with a couple of coats of shellac, then completely forgot about the water-based clear grain filler I purchased and went straight to the Tru Oil. Somehow I managed to create a run in the Tru Oil, and this morning I sanded it through to the color coat. That sucks, but gives me an excuse to start over.

So just to be clear on what's probably an obvious point, does this sound right? Dye burst, then 2-3 coats of clear shellac, clear grain filler gel, then straight to the Tru Oil? I'm concerned about sanding through the color a second time as I level the grain fill. Any suggestions on that?

 

[Skyjerk]

Grain fill first.

Everything else after.

I use simtec easy sanding sealer. Ash in particular is super hard to grain fill. If you want a smooth finish instead of a buttload of pores it's just the best. It's for spraying though, so if you don't have a gun then you'll need another kind of fill, and probably need more than one application to get the surface really flat.
Once you have filled and leveled the surface, THEN do your color coats and top coats.

 

[waygorked]

I could see that making sense if I was spraying, but I'm doing a hand-dubbed dye burst with Transtints. Does that still make sense to apply the pore filler before the dye?

 

[Skyjerk]

I could see that making sense if I was spraying, but I'm doing a hand-dubbed dye burst with Transtints. Does that still make sense to apply the pore filler before the dye?

Depends on the look you want I guess.

Some people like the porous look, and don't fill, so I guess that's a personal preference thing.

Some people seal and then pore fill, particularly if using a darker filler and want it to darken the pores but not stain the wood.

I'm thinking that staining and then filling is going to produce an uneven, or spotty looking color coat if you fill over top of the stain. I could be wrong. I haven't done oil finishes.

If I was to try it myself, I'd pore fill first with a filler that's close in color to the wood and that can also be stained, sand thenwhole surface perfectly flat, and then do the color.

I'm sure others will chime in tomorrow that have more experience with the kind of finish you are doing, and I'll end up being wrong

 

[cooljuk]

I don't have nearly the experience of Skyjerk or others here but I have grain filled ash bodies a few different ways.

What I've settled on is a coat of sealer, grain filling, then more sealer coats. The first coat prevents me from having to work so much filler into the pores. If I don't do that, the wood sucks it up and I end up having to use much more filler.

I'm spraying the sealer and finishing in nitro after. Not Tru Oil. So maybe that's different. I'd think that putting the color down before the filler would make the filled pores more obvious than putting the color on after filler, though.

 

[B. Howard]

Any stain or dye must be done on bare wood or it will not take over a clear grain filler.

Based upon your materials at hand I would agree with your proposed process except I would cut down to two coats of shellac at most for the sealer. Shellac probably isn't your best choice here.... It doesn't build well and can be prone to being gummy when sanded increasing the possibility of sand through. A vinyl sealer would work better. Takes a lot of practice to get good at this finish thing. Sand through is a common problem at first.

You have 3 completely different finish materials in your stack, so make sure you are getting good mechanical adhesion between products.

 

[Skyjerk]

FWIW, B.Howard is an authority. I would give his advice a LOT of weight.

Certainly a lot more than mine. As I said, I’ve not done what you are doing.

 

[moreles]

Tru-Oil (or French Polish, or any wiped finish) would not be my choice of finish over swamp ash, if I wanted a really smooth surface. ACtually, I would never use TruOil on a musical instrument, period (since I don't think it's formulated to enhance musical tone) though I know some people like it. Over swamp ash, I would spray something that will build somewhat, and then sand dead flat.

 

[BPW666]

I've used truoil on a couple of builds now and like it a lot. Not sure it would be my first choise on ash over a stained burst though. It's lovely as a natural finish or over a block stained colour, both mine were on mahogany.

One thing to be careful of its that truoil can dissolve stain so it may effect a rubbed burst. If applying it directly over a stain make sure you let the stain have a few days to dry then keep your first coats very light and don't rub them to much just get a coat on and leave it alone to dry. Build a few coats like that before putting it on any thicker.

There are a few ways to put on truoil. One is to apply oil then sand, this creates a slurry that gets worked into the pores and files them. But that's obviously not going to be am option over a rubbed burst.

I've also had good results applying a block stain over pore filled wood and then using truoil. I've never used it over any form of sealer but that might act as a barrier to protect your burst. I generally go for tru oil when i want a soft satin finish. You can get really amazing high gloss results with it but it's a lot of work.

Do you have any off cuts from your body, if not maybe try as s find a board of the same wood? Take them and experiment with the materials you have and work out a schedule that works for you. See if the grain filter you have will take colour or if you need to stain first.

As far as it's effect on the sound, it may nor be formulated to enhance musical tone but it's one off the thinnest lightest finishes you can apply great for acoustic tops.