Gibson Reverse Firebird construction questions?

[Fletch]

I mean the neck through, layered ones... I have a stash of mahogany from some furniture that I've had for a few years. It is awesome old wood that mills up really nicely but not quite the dimensions for a typical guitar body, the thickest it gets is about 1.250". So I'm thinking Reverse Firebird... couple questions because I can't figure this out through the search function. All the plans I see around the internet mention nothing about construction...

1) what are the layers of the center of a neck-through firebird? It looks like five pieces of mahogany sandwiched together, but there seems to be very thin layers of wood that look sort of like pinstripes between the layers on the pictures I see around the internet... is that just a glue line or something?

2) how thick are the "wings" on a Firebird?

3) how are the "wings" glued to the center section? is it just a flat glue joint? I seem to remember something about it being milled as a slight "V"shaped...

4) what is the headstock angle? 17? or 14? taking vintage 1960's dimensions... neck angle would be good to know as well

5) is there a headstock veneer glued on or is it just the stepped shape milled out on these?

If anybody has some good pictures of a stripped vintage firebird , particularly the bottom by the strap pin showing the layers and construction they could share it would be very helpful.


thanks!
fletch

 

['59_Standard]

I think Doug Kauer should be able to answer all the above, Fletch. He's a FB addict.

I'm sure others will add their 2 cents.

Here's what I've come up with - though i'm not sure how much it helps!:

A. R. Douchs' book mention.

63 (Santana's guitar) and a 64's pics

65 rebuild pics - non reverse.

63-64 cavity shots. And I'm betting this fella has a ton of great pics on these beauties.

 

[Fletch]

Thanks, lots of good information in those links. I'm seeing a 9 layer laminate in the center section. I'll have to measure the wood I have and see if its the right dimensions.

fletch

 

[Dougie]

The center is 9 sections, the thin strips are walnut, the rest is mahogany. The joints that the wings glue into are a 90° vee, milled on a 45° angle. 17° peghead angle.

Wing thickness is 1.250" at the glue joint. Although it is rumored that a scant few of the very first Firebird Is had thicker wings, I have never been able to document this or find any photos.

I do not think Firebirds had a peghead overlay but hey I'm old and could be wrong!

 

[dougk]

Doug I'm almost certain firebirds are the Gibson exception at 11* not 17. Ours are 11 and they are still barely able to fit in a Gibson case.

 

['59_Standard]

There was a (non reverse) transitional 65 on ebay recently:

this

Nice P90 version, here

 

[voices]

Don't know if this will help but here are some photos of an unfinished factory one(year unknown):

 

[dougk]

I think Doug Kauer should be able to answer all the above, Fletch. He's a FB addict.

I'm sure others will add their 2 cents.

Here's what I've come up with - though i'm not sure how much it helps!:

A. R. Douchs' book mention.

63 (Santana's guitar) and a 64's pics

65 rebuild pics - non reverse.

63-64 cavity shots. And I'm betting this fella has a ton of great pics on these beauties.

most of the important info has been covered and I don't think you'd want my advice, mine aren't 100% vintage correct. I think a lot of the 'design' on Firebirds is stupid, especially the multipiece neck. That's done simply because you can't get 1 chunk of quartered mahogany big enough to do a neck thru with that much headstock. They take a bunch of 4/4 and stack it on edge, add the walnut in to make it look like it's not a manufacturing decision.

The walnut does nothing.

Mine are 3 piece, the neck is 2 pieces (usually 1 piece of quartersawn, cut up the middle with one half flipped and reglued to make it extra stable) with a scarfed headstock to solve grain run out issues.

 

[fortwinnie]

I think a lot of the 'design' on Firebirds is stupid

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater
I have seen your take on the 'bird and think they're cool but
one of the Firebirds most alluring aspects is it's multi-lam neck-thru.
Without the cool design quirks the 'bird is a vaguely potato shaped blob.

May as well do a "spin" on the RD

 

[Dougie]

Doug I'm almost certain firebirds are the Gibson exception at 11* not 17. Ours are 11 and they are still barely able to fit in a Gibson case.

dougk, I went and measured my Custom Shop '63 reissue and it is 14° instead of 17° as I mistakenly stated. My Flying V, Explorer, and R9 are all 17° which I guess is standard Gibson?

Also, the unfinished Firebird in the photos could be a 1972 medallion reissue. It has a two piece neck, but it looks like a stamped 6 digit serial number. It also looks like there is no Made In USA stamped into the wood below the serial but it's too hard to see. That means it could possibly be mid 60s original production. If it has the Made In USA lightly stamped, it is definitely post 1970, and pre-bicentennial which had decals for serials bearing the "Limited Edition" below the serial. The bicentennial reissues, all the way through the 1982 production used two piece necks (as well as did some of the original early '60s Firebirds!). It looks like it has a peghead overlay, but the nicely done photos of the '65 transition model linked to on ebay definitely show there is no overlay on that peghead. Again, with Gibson, you never know..

As far as the actual tone of the neck, guitars with baseball bat neck profiles really bark. There is a certain thing that happens when you can "hear" the neck, and it colors the entire voicing of the instrument. Doesn't matter if it's a Strat, Tele, Firebird, Explorer, or even a Precision Bass. It's a mass thing, an excursion into the laws of physics if you will. Once you cross a certain unwritten rule, you begin to have enough mass in the neck to "hear" the peghead, and the tuners, all that weight shapes the tone and without the mass in the neck, it just doesn't get transferred back into the body and pickups.

I think that fact alone has more to do with how a guitar will sound than how many laminates are in the neck. In some cases, those laminates can hinder the vibration because they break the grain substrates into a fractured and shattered bunch of non-parallel directions that can make a neck sound "clubby" if you will. The 9pc neck might give the 'bird a large chunk of it's identity, but acoustically only one out of hundreds of those guitars really comes to life in the hands. I have a Thunderbird IV bass that is just incredibly loud and sustains unbelievably long, I walked by it sitting on a stand at a DC guitar show, plucked the A string and was floored! Bought it on the spot without batting an eye! Oddly enough, it has a VERY thin neck profile, and a really narrow nut. I think it's 1 9/16" or 1 5/8" but it's skinny as hell. It has a 9pc neck as well.

My '63 reissue Firebird I has a HUGE neck, and it has -THAT- Firebird sound, but it's clubby sounding, when I got it it was very dull and thuddy sounding acoustically. I have played quite a few vintage Firebirds that also were real doggy sounding guitars. It's a hit or miss proposition with those laminated necks. Ovation used the as well, I hated the sound of those guitars and trust me NONE of these laminates kept those necks out of the repair shops! Wouldn't believe how many pegheads I have repaired that were laminated.

My Tbird bass that sounds SO E'FFN GOOD? Been busted/repaired 4 times, the last time was with superglue which filled in all the tiny little voids and permeated the grain, and it sounds better now than it did new that day on the guitar stand at the DC show. I have never come across a Tbird bass of any vintage that is anywhere near as LOUD as this ol' girl is...

 

[dougk]

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater
I have seen your take on the 'bird and think they're cool but
one of the Firebirds most alluring aspects is it's multi-lam neck-thru.
Without the cool design quirks the 'bird is a vaguely potato shaped blob.

May as well do a "spin" on the RD

Sorry, I LOVE Firebirds, I think they are cool as hell... but I think there are serious design flaws and some things people attibute to them that are purely done for production/gibsonlaziness™.

You can still build a hell of a neckthru firebird (as I do) while addressing most of these issues.

It's why the number one customer of my Banshee's are touring artists. They don't want to take fragile vintage examples on the road and they know mine are:

1. Built to their specs
2. Consistently great.
3. Replaceable (if you are patient).

(not to toot my own horn here). Just sayin...

 

[lee1964]

Hi Fletch just let me know what measurements you need I have a 64 FirebirdI

The wings actually taper to the outside edges and yes Mine does have some kind of V jointing going on for the wings to attach to the neck the neck

I make quite a few Firebird type guitars and I just use a butt joint for the wings with no issues

 

[switch625DL]

Hello there!
I am currently building few Firebirds for myself (to me it's just as much work as making only one, so...) I made some different necks for neck-thrus: one with 3 plies of pearwood and 2 stripes of merbau in between, next one: 3 ply maple 2 merbau stripes and another: 3 plies of maple and 2 walnut stripes. We'll see how that will sound! (one day, one day... sigh...)
No scarf joint, headstock angle was pre-cut at 14 degree angle. I haven't routed the headstock shapes yet, so I'd like to ask a few measurement questions:
I know that the headstock from the nut to the end is like 238 mm long. Can anybody tell me how wide is the headstock in it's widest point (near the nut) and at the rounded end of the headstock?
I know that might sound a bit weird and amateurish (for someone trying to build a Firebird ) but that's the only thing I can't figure out right from those plans I found on the internet or with the help of forum members here.
Thanks in advance and have a great day!
Adrian

 

[Dougie]

My 2003 Custom Shop '63 reissue measures 90mm at the widest point, and 61mm at the "hook" on the end of the peghead.

 

[switch625DL]

My 2003 Custom Shop '63 reissue measures 90mm at the widest point, and 61mm at the "hook" on the end of the peghead.

Thank you so much Dougie! Cheers!

 

[Stratified]

. . . The wings actually taper to the outside edges . . .

From my own research on the web, having the same interest as you re Firebird dimensions, but not having one to examine:

"the middle section is 4 1/16 " wide and 1 1/2" thick.
The "step" off the face of the middle section to the "wings" is 5/64" while the "step" off the back is 7/64".
Now for surprise number two:
The "wings" have a thickness of 1 5/16" next to the center section but they both taper down to 1 3/32" at their sides.
The taper goes from center section out towards the side edges of the guitar only."

I also found a photo that confirms/demonstrates that taper.

Hope this helps.

 

[Dougie]

I knew the wings were tapered, also, the taper is symmetrical front and back. Both the front and back of the wings are tapered equally.

 

[SuperDuty62]

Don't know if this will help but here are some photos of an unfinished factory one(year unknown):

I know this post is old, but funny how you have the pictures. I lost the bid on ebay just a few weeks ago because my computer screwed up and the buyer got the whole thing for $1,125. The seller had everything for it, all hardware and a case. Now that I am seeing this, don't know how or where you got these pictures.

I saved all the pictures from the recent ebay auction and saving the picture of the lower wing control cavity I just noticed something. The seller had a July **, 1976 stamp date and an A stamp in the control cavity claiming it was a 1976 lower wing. Which in the pictures you posted it only shows the A stamp and NO July **, 1976 date?

The seller also claimed according to the serial numbers on the back of the headstock that it was a 63/64 Firebird body and neck and of course the tuner holes were misdrilled and filler put in it.

I had suspicions on it but I guess for all the hardware and an unfinished guitar, it could make into a good project. I was hoping to win the auction so not only I could finish it, but also make a lower wing for my 1976 Firebird which my mom threw away many many years ago.

I offered the seller prior to auction end that I would give him $800 mentioning it that unless he had documentation to show it was an actual 63/64 Firebird anyone could have taken numbers and pressed it in the headstock claiming it a particular year model and I would drive to get it being he was not far from me, but he declined my offer, so the auction ended a few hundred more than what I offered.

 

[SuperDuty62]

I have a Gibson Firebird Bicentinniel I bought brand new in 1976 and the serial number and such is decaled, but it doesn't have the limited edition on it. Also the body and neck is a 2 piece mahogany.

 

[voices]

I know this post is old, but funny how you have the pictures. Now that I am seeing this, don't know how or where you got these pictures.

pretty sure i snagged them from the original auction way back when.