Gibson 1978 "Original Humbuckers"

[intonenation]

I'm hopping over from a general thread I started on 78 Customs in the Norlin forum about one that I have been offered.

I got through to Gibson on the phone and they told me it would have been issued with "Orginal Humbuckers" - an actual manufacturer name.

Never heard of them.

Gibson told me the output was just over 7ohms. That's pretty light, right? (But I guess that can help with tone).

Can anyone fill me in? The vibe? Compared to other well-known pups (e.g. T-Tops, Burstbucker Pros) that I own/hear?

Thanks in advance.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

They are simply T-Tops (as they are known by us) and around 1980 "the original humbucker" then became the P490 (like the 490R of today)

The original humbucker is not so much a single model through the years, as it is the STANDARD model, whatever that may be, in any given year.

"The Original Humbucker" was a marketing device that attempted to show people that GIBSON made the first humbuckers and theirs was the original, as opposed to say DiMarzio or Seymour Duncan etc. They had other names for other models that were not their standard issue of the time.

For example, "Super Humbucking" "Dirty Fingers" "Pat Appl For" (the Shaw) "Dirty Fingers" "Velvet Brick" and "The Original Humbucker" Gibson never referred to their pickups as "T-Tops" I think the Bill Lawrence pickups of 1988 and 1989 were also refered to as "The Original Humbucker" as it was the standard for those two years.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

You can see here that 490R/T are considered "The Original Humbucker" now. In 1978 it would be the T-Top. Gibson customer service is often not aware of their own history.

Gibson 490R Original Humbucker Pickup and more Guitar Pickups & Parts at GuitarCenter.com.

My theory is that the person you talked to probably was using specs for the current non-Historic Les Paul Custom to answer your question anyway.....and accidently got it right in a way unknown to him.

So, in short, "The Original Humbucker" was coined sometime in the 70s. And they were first the T-Tops, then the P490, then the Bill Lawrence (circuit board) then and finally the 490R/490T.

That is my educated guess, and I welcome any other's opinions.

 

[intonenation]

A-Ha! That makes a lot of sense in hindsight.

My one concern with 1978 I've been offered is that the pups have been swapped out. They are uncovered so I could look straight away for a big letter "T". That's about me at the limit of my knowledge (although I know how these sound much better than visually).

But no obvious "T" stamp. So does that mean they cannot be the factory originals?

Thanks in advance for tackling a further question.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

As far as I know ALL models of Gibson pickups in 1978 had "T" bobbins. Tim Shaw was intrumental in bringing back the "square in circle" PAF style bobbins Gibson has used ever since 1980. So, it is very unlikely that 78 Custom has factory original pickups if there is no "T" on each bobbin.. When you get a chance take some pictures of them, both mounted and out IF you care to.


But if it is a nice Custom you really want, T-Tops with patent number stamped backing plate (from mid 1974-early 1980) are pretty easy to find and should not be very expensive.....say $400 a set for really nice ones.

 

[intonenation]

Yeah, it's a nice example for its age - the frets are still very playable (been dressed but not re-fretted) and it's cosmetically good. The dealer (in a non-music shop, think Pawn Stars TV show) honestly sells it as all-original but doesn't have any level of specialist knowledge.

So with this encouragement I'll go back and use your info to haggle the price/part-exchange deal. You might have saved me a good few bucks. Thank you.

Now I've just got to figure out what the hell they really are.

Erm ... they're black. A set. That's all I've got. Maybe DiMarzios would have been a popular swap for the era.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

Do you know for sure they do not have "T" bobbins? They could be anything, who knows when they were swapped, the day it was bought in 1978, or the day before it was pawned in Nov 2010!

 

[intonenation]

Excuse my ignorance - what does "bobbins" mean in this context? (I'm not this clueless with actual playing or tone-hunting, honest).

But they could have been put in there any time, you're right. They look like they've been in there for a good while but that doesn't mean much, I agree. Just know that switching to beef-ier Super Distortions or such was once (circa late 70s) fashionable round here, seen quite a few. One reason I keep searching.

I can't even glean much of how they sound because this is not a place for plugging-and-playing. You might wonder, why I'm taking this deal seriously? Because I've been looking for a year and more for the right 70s/early 80s LP and there's always been something not quite a goer with previous near-misses. And there is a p/x to be done. Here in the UK the trade-in deal at music shops is pretty much history - too much in stock and dealers frightened of been caught with an item that they can't move. This used to be the lifeblood of the trade but it's going fast. It would be the lifeblood of my trading if I could move along one-of-the-too-many sitting unplayed at my plac (PRS CU-22, CS Strat etc.).

I'm learning a lot as we go along.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

A bobbin is something you wrap the wire around, a spool is something you take wire from. The "T" is stamped on the bobbin (the plastic form that the pickup wire is wrapped around)

 

[intonenation]

Yeah, I should hang my head in shame there. Of course I know what you mean now. The pick-up gold covers have gone so the bobbins are exposed to view and there is no characteristic "T". After buying I could hunt inside and look for more clues ... but could be paying over the odds before I get it home.

I guess about £150-200 ($225-300) off the price for it being non-original? American guitars are a lot more here than in the US. So much so that many British traders can buy stock from big shows like Dallas, pay accomodation, flights, shipping, import taxes and still come out ahead.

Before this thread I would have believed Gibson's indications and taken the dealer at his word for full asking price.

 

[hamerfan]

I think the Bill Lawrence pickups of 1988 and 1989 were also refered to as "The Original Humbucker" as it was the standard for those two years.

These are the famed circuit board pickups.

The others designed by BL (from 1972 on) are called Super Humbucking Pickups - in various looks (no holes covers on the L6S).

 

[circusboy28]

Skatterbrane is spot on about all the Gibson pickups of the era having "T" markings on the top. I was just looking at the Dirty Fingers pickups in my 1980 335-S & they have "T"s on them. Again, the pickups could have been changed at any time, so they really could be anything. If they are more recent they will have some sort of manufacturers marking on the underside, but if they are older than mid '80's they may not.

It's been a while, but as I recall DiMarzio Super Distortions - which were by far the most common pickup change around my way back then, don't have screws for pole pieces. Rather they have open slugs that are slightly larger than the screw pole piece on T-Tops. It's hard to describe too well in words, but with a photo...

For what it's worth - the DiMarzios were higher output than T-tops & had a more forward, in your face sound, I'd describe them as perhaps a little more hard rock than classic rock, if that makes sense. If the rest of the guitar is what you want at a good price then I wouldn't see the pickup change as a deal breaker by any means.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

I see you got your Les Paul, can you post pictures of the pickups?

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

There was a time in the late 70s (I forgot about this) that Gibson used Schaller bobbins. They have a textured look to them and do not have any markings.

 

[intonenation]

I see you got your Les Paul, can you post pictures of the pickups?

Thank you for your continuing interest, it took me a little while to enable this. I hope the detail uploads well enough that you can see the rough surface texture to the bobbin - is this in keeping with the Gibson type mentioned in your earlier post?

You can see that it is aged enough not to be a of a recent vintage, hence my original guesses that it might be associated with the era of its manufacture. Also, it is evident that it is black. Does that rule out (expected to be white) 70s Super Distortions?

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

Those look just like the Gibson pickups that used Schaller bobbins for a while in the late 70s. They could very well be original. If the backing plates have the patent number stamp, then they are Gibson pickups for sure. Very few people seem to know about these Schaller bobbins. The T-Top molds were wearing out and before Shaw got the new PAF bobbin developed, these were a stop-gap measure. Yes, T-Top bobbins can be found on Les Pauls well into the 1980 however.

 

[intonenation]

Further to this, I've now had a few hours each of the two days I've owned to wrap my ears around the sound. Here are few observations that might also be clues to those with wider experience ... I'm as keen as pre-purchase to crack "The Case of the Cryptic Pick-Ups".

It has terrific, effortless sustain while retaining a wood-y tone. It doesn't need mega-distortion to display this, I'm playing with late 60s/70s levels of overdrive not a modern metal gain. It doesn't sacrifice low-end to get this (an uncharming trait of my PRS Custom 22).

Unplugged it resonates well but not exceptionally. Its characteristic dark tone is there so some/a lot of that tonality is coming from the heavy and now-aged woods (approx. 10 lbs, so not a real Titan for the time).

The bottom-end extends very low for a guitar and is a very rounded attck that stays clear- quite 1950s jazz-y, almost like a big-bodied semi compared when clean to modern LPs. The top-end has clarity rather than bite-y.

Maybe it's just me, but doesn't that sound quite like T-Tops? The memory plays tricks and I don't have a set in the room to run as an A/B test so I'm subject to what science calls Confirmation Bias.

Finally, I intend to take this down to my local guitar technician who I trust to unscrew and photograph the innards of the electrics and I'll upload more informative pics as soon as he can oblige. I'm also waiting on the return from the US of a shop owner who has sold this item to another customer earlier this year. He might fill in some history details.

EDIT: I said above that the top-end had "clarity". A better adjective would be "crisp". Skatterbrane has contributed most of this thread and lead me to his site. Now those demos are top-end clarity, old-skool.

 

[intonenation]

Those look just like the Gibson pickups that used Schaller bobbins for a while in the late 70s. They could very well be original. If the backing plates have the patent number stamp, then they are Gibson pickups for sure. Very few people seem to know about these Schaller bobbins. The T-Top molds were wearing out and before Shaw got the new PAF bobbin developed, these were a stop-gap measure. Yes, T-Top bobbins can be found on Les Pauls well into the 1980 however.

Oops, thanks - that was such a quick response it hit the forum and was unread before my additional info above. I've never heard of "non-T-Top-T-Tops" (youknowwhatImean) - your knowledge is much appreciated.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

I have owned a few sets of these pickups, and they are pretty damned good.

 

[intonenation]

So is the difference purely cosmetic? Or, to your ears, did the difference in bobbins require/coincide with ... I dunno ... a changed winding or other audible change?

Are these essentially T-Tops? Or an intermediate stage between those and Tim Shaws?

This has been really fascinating ...