Fret sizes on classics vs standards vs R9

[JJfuzztone]

Hi guys,
While I have been playing a long time and am at a good level, I never paid attention to fret sizes. I have been on a mad LP buying (and selling) spree over the last 3 or 4 years. I currently have have a 91 classic I have owned since 91, a 2005 classic, a 2022 classic, a 2020 50s standard, and a 2024 R9. Of all these guitars I seem to gravitate toward the 2005 classic (despite the snot lays). The neck is not crazy thin like my 91 classic (absurdly thin) and I can do nice bends all day very comfortably. By contrast I recently got a very nice 2022 classic that plays great aside from low frets. I measured the action on all the guitars and all were very similar, but the 2022 classic is more challenging for me with bends. I feel like the strings want to slide under my fingers. The 50s standard is similar but seem a hair taller so better for bends. The R9 has wider and slightly taller frets which are nice, and the 05 classic (and I believe the 91 as well) seem to have taller and thinner frets.

Anyone hear a fret expert!? What type of frets were used on the early (1990 to 2005) classics? I have bread the post 2019 classics have lower frets. I’m going to either re fret the 22 or sell it. It’s a great guitar but these frets are too low for me.

 

[BlondieMcFilthy]

I'm not an expert so take it with a grain of salt, but all of the post-2019 Gibson line uses smaller/lower frets than they did before the ownership change, despite most of the "literature" saying otherwise. The frets on my 2016 Traditional are much bigger/taller than the ones on any of my latter day USA Gibsons - probably by at least a good 50%, but that's just eyeballing it offhand. It's noticeable at first but I stop caring as much once I get in the swing of actually playing.

Most of the Custom Shop reissues i've played or handled have bigger frets than the current USA Gibson line. Not huge, not as noticeable as the later Henry J USA Gibsons I have/had - kind of somewhere in between the two. That's all a YMMV thing though, Gibson always has certain little inconsistencies in their models from year to year.

 

[Bobby Mahogany]

If the guitar is a keeper (weight, neck size and shape, feel and tone) ,
definitely go for a refret. I would suggest a bone nut at the same time.
But that's just me.
Discuss with a competent luthier, he can show you what you can expect
and you can choose from there.
My best setup guitar is a 1978 Custom that had been converted to lefty
when I got it so I got a bone nut cut, the neck planed, new saddles and new
frets. Doing all that one shot permitted everything to be aligned perfectly every way.

 

[jaqueh]

gibson's plek machines are likely so out of true that they are just grinding away medium jumbo and turning everything into fretless wonders

 

[JJfuzztone]

I'm not an expert so take it with a grain of salt, but all of the post-2019 Gibson line uses smaller/lower frets than they did before the ownership change, despite most of the "literature" saying otherwise. The frets on my 2016 Traditional are much bigger/taller than the ones on any of my latter day USA Gibsons - probably by at least a good 50%, but that's just eyeballing it offhand. It's noticeable at first but I stop caring as much once I get in the swing of actually playing.

Most of the Custom Shop reissues i've played or handled have bigger frets than the current USA Gibson line. Not huge, not as noticeable as the later Henry J USA Gibsons I have/had - kind of somewhere in between the two. That's all a YMMV thing though, Gibson always has certain little inconsistencies in their models from year to year.

Interesting, thanks for the information. Yeah I actually have 2 50s standards (2020 and 2022) and both seem to have slightly larger frets than the 22 classic. I can still play the classic decently, but it seems a bit more effortful. I’d really like to know exactly what frets were used on the 2005 classic I have, it just feels really good. They definitely seem thinner and taller. I’ll either re feet the 22 or find something else. It’s a shame though because I already put 50s wiring and change to my preference top hats and kluson tuners. It really is a shame that so many of those classics from the mid 90s to the early 2000s have the green/yellow inlays otherwise some of those guitars are really great.

Interestingly, I had a 2019 slash model LP standard that looked really cool, and played well but I had the same issue, I was constantly washing my hands, or feeling it, so my hands were greasy because I could not hold onto the strings. I’m not even heavy handed, but I never even considered the frets. I actually ended up selling that guitar on reverb! in retrospect, I’m almost certain it was the frets because that hasn’t been an issue on most of the other Les Paul’s I’ve been playing, aside from this 2022 classic. Frets… Who knew!

 

[JJfuzztone]

If the guitar is a keeper (weight, neck size and shape, feel and tone) ,
definitely go for a refret. I would suggest a bone nut at the same time.
But that's just me.
Discuss with a competent luthier, he can show you what you can expect
and you can choose from there.
My best setup guitar is a 1978 Custom that had been converted to lefty
when I got it so I got a bone nut cut, the neck planed, new saddles and new
frets. Doing all that one shot permitted everything to be aligned perfectly every way.

Yea, my guitar tech said a refret would be around 300, which is less than I would expect. Maybe I’ll give it a go or sell and get another older classic. I dig those 98 to 2005 models

 

[FrostySnowMan]

I also believe it’s due to Plek. Most new have OK medium frets to be honest but damn I’ve seen some horror stories of fretless wonders out of the factory Plek. Any pictures?

 

[Garagemonkey]

My newest Gibson is a 2019 Special and the frets on that are smaller than my '91 Les Paul, '98 335, and '07 Melody Maker. Not just height but width. The other three seem to have identical fret wire, but at least with that Special, the wire is definitely different. I like it, though. No complaints and I wouldn't be sad if my older guitars had the same wire from the Special....nor would I mind if the Special had the older Gibsons' wire. That said, I like different. They all play wonderfully and each makes me play a bit differently.

 

[jbash]

The Henry J era USA production guitars had taller frets. The "new" 2019 and beyond have the shorty frets. Some prefer them, I'm not a fan at all.

My 2020 Slash doesn't get much play time anymore because it's much more difficult for me to play. As the guitar now has a slight backbow in the neck with no more truss rod adjustment to add some relief, I'm not sinking $400+ into it for a refret.

 

[Tementnoise]

My 2013 LPC for sure has taller frets than my ‘22.

 

[JJfuzztone]

The Henry J era USA production guitars had taller frets. The "new" 2019 and beyond have the shorty frets. Some prefer them, I'm not a fan at all.

My 2020 Slash doesn't get much play time anymore because it's much more difficult for me to play. As the guitar now has a slight backbow in the neck with no more truss rod adjustment to add some relief, I'm not sinking $400+ into it for a refret.

Thanks for the info man. Yea, I prefer a bit taller I think. I actually had a slash November burst that I sold about a year ago. I had for 2 years or so but always felt like I was struggling with my bends and was always washing my hands thinking that it must be that my hands were oily or something. That hasn’t been an issue with most of my other LPs, even some of the modern standards I have had. In retrospect I think that slash model just had low frets and I didn’t consider that possibility. I don’t see myself getting used to this 22 classic, but I think it’s a fine guitar and I’m sure many would have no such concerns. I wish I would have realized it before I converted it into a standard! I changed the knobs, the tuners, the pups, the wiring and got rid of the push pull stuff. It’s basically a 60s standard now that looks a whole lot like the Jessica slash guitar. It’s very pretty but I think I’d prefer to find another classic from the 99 to 2005 era, but one that doesn’t have extreme snot lays.

 

[gball]

The frets have changed countless times over the years. I have a variety and don't really think about the fret sizes/heights at all after I get each individual guitar set up to how it feels best to me (no two are exactly alike, each guitar wants what it wants to play its best).

Have you considered the idea that it's not the frets but your choice of strings?

 

[jbash]

Thanks for the info man. Yea, I prefer a bit taller I think. I actually had a slash November burst that I sold about a year ago. I had for 2 years or so but always felt like I was struggling with my bends and was always washing my hands thinking that it must be that my hands were oily or something. That hasn’t been an issue with most of my other LPs, even some of the modern standards I have had. In retrospect I think that slash model just had low frets and I didn’t consider that possibility.

It's a bigger deal for me than most people as I have nerve and joint damage in both my hands, so I can't just "muscle through" like I did for 30+ years before my problems cropped up. I'm overly sensitive to the frets (and neck size/shape) because of that. I've handled a 1/2 doz other post 2019s and they are all pretty much the same (production USA stuff, not the custom shop). My 3 Henry J era guitars have noticeably taller frets.

But I guess if I were in your shoes, If you like the classic otherwise, I'd refret it- especially after the other aesthetic work you put into it. That's what I would do on my Slash model if it were not for the backbow issue, cos I love the sound and how it looks, weighs, balances.

But it's not my wallet, so...

 

[Nintari]

I'm not an expert so take it with a grain of salt, but all of the post-2019 Gibson line uses smaller/lower frets than they did before the ownership change, despite most of the "literature" saying otherwise. The frets on my 2016 Traditional are much bigger/taller than the ones on any of my latter day USA Gibsons - probably by at least a good 50%, but that's just eyeballing it offhand. It's noticeable at first but I stop caring as much once I get in the swing of actually playing.

Most of the Custom Shop reissues i've played or handled have bigger frets than the current USA Gibson line. Not huge, not as noticeable as the later Henry J USA Gibsons I have/had - kind of somewhere in between the two. That's all a YMMV thing though, Gibson always has certain little inconsistencies in their models from year to year.

My '22 50's has noticeably bigger frets than what is coming out of the factory now, so it wasn't a hard change, but rather something gradual. Hopefully, they've settled it now because if they go any lower, it's going to be fretless-wonder territory from here on out.

 

[JJfuzztone]

The frets have changed countless times over the years. I have a variety and don't really think about the fret sizes/heights at all after I get each individual guitar set up to how it feels best to me (no two are exactly alike, each guitar wants what it wants to play its best).

Have you considered the idea that it's not the frets but your choice of strings?

Well it’s possible but I have 6 LPs and they all have the same strings and all set up the same by the same tech. The frets on the 22 classic are noticeably smaller even to the touch. I did raise the action but that did nothing, I’m still feeling too much wood / fret board for my liking. I mean I can play it okay and can adapt to an extent, but if I go back and play the other ones it’s quite noticeable to me.

 

[JJfuzztone]

It's a bigger deal for me than most people as I have nerve and joint damage in both my hands, so I can't just "muscle through" like I did for 30+ years before my problems cropped up. I'm overly sensitive to the frets (and neck size/shape) because of that. I've handled a 1/2 doz other post 2019s and they are all pretty much the same (production USA stuff, not the custom shop). My 3 Henry J era guitars have noticeably taller frets.

But I guess if I were in your shoes, If you like the classic otherwise, I'd refret it- especially after the other aesthetic work you put into it. That's what I would do on my Slash model if it were not for the backbow issue, cos I love the sound and how it looks, weighs, balances.

But it's not my wallet, so...

Yea man, good points. I’ll figure it out. Im probably going to end up with an older classic if I can find one with inlays that aren’t too bad, some look fine and some are very green. I’ll probably sell one or two of my others since I have acquired too many. Although I may wait to sell later when the market is better. Good time to buy but the market seems a bit over saturated with used guitars.

 

[JJfuzztone]

2005 classic (green inlays) and 2022 classic The frets don’t look that different in these pics but they feel different for sure. I don’t think this is in my head

 

[searswashere]

can just replace the inlays no?

also, calipers are your friend here

 

[JJfuzztone]

can just replace the inlays no?

also, calipers are your friend here

Yea, theoretically I could I change the inlays which would be great and would make shopping for old classics a lot easier. But I have had zero luck finding someone in my area that offers inlays work

 

[1allspub]

The newer 2019+ guitars definitely have lower frets than the HJ era guitars… and I for one, love them. I’m personally not a fan of tall, cumbersome frets and really like these new (2019+) frets. But, understand my favorite frets are the late mid-to-late 70s/early 80s “Low-Wide” frets (not “Fretless Wonder”… the “Low-Wides” are different). So it’s all a matter of taste.

Anyway, to get more specific, R9s run Jescar FW45100 frets, whereas the typical HJ era frets on the USA guitars were Jescar 55090 (or Dunlop 6105). But TBH, I’m not really sure what the frets are the new (2019+) ones are spec’d to… just that I dig ‘em.