French polish tutorial

[Pjam]

I don't know if there's anything to be gained, but the only thing to be lost is some time. Time that you can then use to build more guitars!

Yes, true! but I don't mind putting it on the the shelf for a while, then.........I can start another

After reading the beetle hole timber thread I like the idea of a real curly misshapen piece of timber! sounds like a challenge.

 

[gator payne]

It take about a week for a 2-3 mil (6-8 body sessions with 2# cut) FP finish to fully cure. A bit more if thicker.

Sorry I would have answered sooner but was traveling home this weekend.

 

[Pjam]

Sorry I would have answered sooner but was traveling home this weekend.

Gator, it's great you respond, that's what matters.

I've lost count with the body sessions! what with one or two mishaps and repairs i must be up to maybe 10-12. I guess about a fortnight.

Thanks again Gator. Oh, Hall tables started now

 

[Bgetraer]

This thread is great! Big thanks to gator for all the great advice and info you share in this forum. This excellent guide/explanation of French polishing has Answered almost all of the questions I had about tue finish technique, and has inspired me to learn it. I do still have a few questions though if you would be obliged to help out a newbie! I am planning on finishing a les Paul (which I am in the beginnig stages of building as my first guitar build.
1) I have read a lot about French polish not being abdvisable to use on electric guitars b/c it is not durable enough. What is your opinion/experience in this respect?
2) could a shellac burst be sprayed over a frenchpolish base, and the French polished over again? Would it look similar to a laqcuer burst? Would the French polish on top of the burst dissolve into the burst colors and ruin/smudge it? is it a good idea in your opium?
3) could you. Explain how to use shellac as grainfikler in greater detail?

Thank you very much, I hope these aren't too many questions!
Benjy Getraer

 

[gator payne]

This thread is great! Big thanks to gator for all the great advice and info you share in this forum. This excellent guide/explanation of French polishing has Answered almost all of the questions I had about tue finish technique, and has inspired me to learn it. I do still have a few questions though if you would be obliged to help out a newbie! I am planning on finishing a les Paul (which I am in the beginnig stages of building as my first guitar build.
1) I have read a lot about French polish not being abdvisable to use on electric guitars b/c it is not durable enough. What is your opinion/experience in this respect?
2) could a shellac burst be sprayed over a frenchpolish base, and the French polished over again? Would it look similar to a laqcuer burst? Would the French polish on top of the burst dissolve into the burst colors and ruin/smudge it? is it a good idea in your opium?
3) could you. Explain how to use shellac as grainfikler in greater detail?

Thank you very much, I hope these aren't too many questions!
Benjy Getraer

1.) It is a softer finish than nitro and the polys but it is infinatly refreshable so it a personal thing. If you dont want any wear or don't want to have to re-touch then it might not be for you. but it has nothing to do with electric or not.
2.) phyisicaly you can do that but you would not have a continious amalgamated film. The essents of French polishing is meltinig and remelting each sessions aplication into one continious amalgamated film. Doing what you said you would have a base of Frenched polished/ a intermediate layer of sprayed shellac that is not full amalgamated into the existing French polish film. Then the top few micro mil's of tht sprayed film would only be hand glazed. Keep in mind you are asking someone that is without a doubt a purrest and 40 year experienced Old World French Polisher. What you are inquiring about is some sort of hybrid technique If your looking for a fast fix, want to cut time, want to reduce effort then shellac allows a wide variounce of application methods. however I will never call a hybrid system French polishing. Nor will ever concede that such hybrid systems as having the same properties or atributes as a truly French polished finish. <LOL> you asked the wrong person that question<LOL>

If you read the tutorial fully then you had to pick up on the fact that the the there are 3 main processes in French polishing. All Three and intrical and dependent on each other to achive wat is truly a Frenched polish finish. leave out one of the process or change how the process is performed and you end up with a hand rubbed shellac finish that will not have the same quailities as a French polished finish. I am not saying that hybrid finishes are bad. i am just saying they will not have all the attributes of a French polish finish.

3.)By grainfkicker I assume you mean grain filler. That is simple. take end grain saw dust of matching wood and a muneca loaded with shellac and rub in tight small figure eights . The shellac acts as a bonding agent that hold the dust in the pores. Not really anything more complex than that.

 

[Bgetraer]

Thanks for the reply!
i know that it would not truly be a french polish and meant only to refer to the top and base coats as such because that would be the method that i would use to apply the finish the reason i would spray the burst is that that seems to be the standard way to apply the sunburst effect on electric guitars.
however, an idea popped into my head while reading your reply and another of your old threads that has come up recently, and that is to french polish the sunburst, similar to handstaining it.
i am sure this is possible, and i suppose the only way i could know if it would come ou the way i want it to would be to try on scrap, but could this achieve a classic les paul burst effect if done properly? also, if you have any tips or suggestions in how to do this i would greatly appreciate it!
- and i guess then i could call it a "french polish"
thanks for answering my question, i learn so much from your posts!
benjy getraer

 

[gator payne]

you made no mention of a bursst!!!!!!!!!!! That changes my reply in a major way

French polishing a burst is a very difficult process. It take many attempsts to learn to be able to sucsessfull transiotion between hues when doing a true French polish finish. if you are looking for a burst finish The I suggest either you first hand stain the bare wood, spray seal it with shellac (3 coats min) then you can french polish the rest of the way out. but never!!!!! attenpt to hand rub or hand glaze stained shellec directly you will only make a muddy mess.

Now it is possible to do a fully French polished burst but only a very few skilled French polishers can pull this off with good results (meaning that the whole finish was Frenched polish with various shades of tinted shellac or more commonly various different colors of shellac was used. (shellac comes in hues from processed very blonde flakes to very dark unprocessed garnet lack buttons) If you looking to do a burst and you are not very proficent in various finish medias and techneques then attempting a French polish burst is a bad idea.

 

[gator payne]

- and i guess then i could call it a "french polish"
thanks for answering my question, i learn so much from your posts!
benjy getraer

not in my book

 

[gator payne]

however, an idea popped into my head while reading your reply and another of your old threads that has come up recently, and that is to french polish the sunburst, similar to handstaining it.

The two are not even close to being simular more less related

 

[Bgetraer]

Sorry for the confusion. i did mention that it was supposed to be a burst in the original post:
"2) could a shellac burst be sprayed over a frenchpolish base, and the French polished over again? Would it look similar to a laqcuer burst? Would the French polish on top of the burst dissolve into the burst colors and ruin/smudge it? is it a good idea in your opium?"
but should have made that more evident from the start!
i take your word that it is a bad idea for a beginner to french polish the transition in the burst, which is one of the reasons i was planning to spray the shellac in the first place.
you advise that i spray three coats of (i assume clear) shellac over the burst colors before french polishing the rest of the way out, which i would guess is becuase of the previously explained idea of the french polish coats dissolving into one another, which i tried to ask about in the original question that was not clear enough.
sorry for the confusion, and the only reason i compared it to a handstain burst is that it was that thread that gave me the idea! (sorry bout that to)\
lastly, you said my idea of french polishing the burst would not be a true french polish in your book, but i am guesiing thats because you thought i meant i would handstain in between?
either way, thanks for your previous replies, and i hope that my clarification helps!
thanks
benjy getraer

 

[gator payne]

I would push you towards staining the burst in the wood allow it to set 2 days spray blonde shellac as sealer 93 coats. allow to cure 3-5 days then you can FP the rest of the way out If a FP outer finish is what your after. That said you would have to poke me with a cherry hot iron to get me to call it a FP finish. You could also spray all the way out and still have a very nice shellac finish. But you do not want to apply alcohol in a hand rubbed manor of any shape of form directly to stained shellac.

 

[Bgetraer]

seriously though, this kind of help is awesome, and i really appreciate how much you go out of the way to help and answer the questions of those just starting to learn about this craft.

that said, i still have some questions:
is there a reason why it is better to handstain the entire burst (and correct me if i am misunderstanding your advice) than to fp the amber and spray the red burst over it using tinted shellac, than spray the clear coats and finish the fp?

also, if the correct way is to handstain it, could i just follow your hand stain burst tutorial and then finish with the french polish tutorial?

btw, thanks for explaining the grain filler! sometimes i expect even the simplest things to be so complicated that i see straight through how simple they actually are!

thats all the questions i can think of for now! thanks for your patience and generosity!!
benjy getraer

 

[caulfim]

How I wish I had seem this before I tried to do it and had to start again... Thanks Gator.

 

[gator payne]

seriously though, this kind of help is awesome, and I really appreciate how much you go out of the way to help and answer the questions of those just starting to learn about this craft.

that said, i still have some questions:
is there a reason why it is better to handstain the entire burst (and correct me if i am misunderstanding your advice) than to fp the amber and spray the red burst over it using tinted shellac, than spray the clear coats and finish the fp?

also, if the correct way is to handstain it, could i just follow your hand stain burst tutorial and then finish with the french polish tutorial?

btw, thanks for explaining the grain filler! sometimes i expect even the simplest things to be so complicated that i see straight through how simple they actually are!

thats all the questions i can think of for now! thanks for your patience and generosity!!
benjy getraer

it seems to me that more than anything else your just want to do things different than my tutorial. I cant stop you. I have tried to give the insite. You just keep coming back to wanting to do the same thing over and over again despite my advise.

IMO based on 40 years of FP finishing your best bet is to either stain the wood first seal and FP from there. Or you can do a sprayed burst from start to finish. Doing this really pointless FP/ Spray/ FP mumbo jumbo is like your are saying "I hear what you are advising but I don't want to do that so can I do it this way". I can't condone that I will never give a recomendation on doing a FP/ Spray/FP because in my experience most hybrids are inverior.

I also don't feel that shellac is the best media for a sprayed burst. It can be damaged much eaiser than than nitro or poly and repairing a multi color shellac burst is vastly more dificult .

Im not mad so please don't take it as such but I do get the feeling you are wanting me to approve you concept and frankly I don't. I think it is only asking for trouble.

As far as the hand rubbed stain then FP finish ther is no issue ther but seal the stain job first so that the alcohol in the FP mix does not cause the stain to smear.

 

[Bgetraer]

actually, that is exactly what i wanted to hear!
my last question was more out of curiosity in knowing why the fp/spray/fp was less advisable than looking for your approval, and i have no problem hearing that the plan i came up with is not recommended. that is why i posted in the first place.
thank you for your advice and patience!!
benjy getraer

 

[sotkija]

I'm going to FP my new tele that I built. With the help of this tutorial I'm now quite confident of having found the right method to stain and FP the guitar. However, I would like to have the process confirmed by you, Gator.

The guitar has a brasilian cedar neck and body, a thermo treated flamed birch top and double binding.

1. Pore filling: First a spit coat of 1# cut shellac is laid on. Then the grain is filled with a muneca loaded with alcohol, tapping it to pumice and rubbing it on the wood. Then sanded back with about 320 grit paper.

2. Staining: I'll stain the brasilian cedar parts quite a bit darker. I'll seal the binding with shellac and handstain with Stewmac's Colortone dyes. Let it cure for a couple of days, scrape the bindings clean and then (preferably) spray the spitcoat of shellac on. However, I may have to rub the spit coat by hand since I don't have a spray gun and pray to god it won't smudge the stain.

The top will be french polished with garnet shellac. Thermo treatment + garnet shellac give it a very nice antique style color. So no actual staining for the top, just darker shellac.

3. Go on with FP process as described here. I'll use garnet shellac for the top until the color is right and then I may have to scrape the top of the binding clean and proceed with blonde shellac to the end. For the cedar parts I'll be using only blonde shellac for the whole process.

Is there something that will inevitably go wrong with this kind of process? My main concerns are the spit coat after staining (will it ruin the color because of hand rubbing?) and having nice, clean, creamy bindings after the process. The quality of the final shellac film is another story.

Thank you for the tutorial and thank you in advance if you'll find time to read this and give a comment.

 

[sotkija]

Oh yes, one more thing. You said a good finish requires about 6-8 body sessions, but what is the definition of 1 session? Let's say that rubbing a layer of shellac starting from one end and proceeding to the other end so that it covers the whole surface is one "coat" (even though you told not to think of coats when french polishing). So how many "coats" would make one body session? Or is it just one?

 

[Bgetraer]

based on gator's previous advice i think that it would be better to spray the shellac spitcoats...

something like this
STEWMAC.COM : Preval Spray Unit
should be perfect and is probably available at your local mom and pop hardware store for less than online.

that said i have no experience with it yet although i believe that several members such as TKOjams have used it successfully with lacquer!
good luck!

benjy getraer

 

[sotkija]

Yes, you're right. Spraying the spit coat would've been better, or at least easier. I managed to rub it by hand though. The key was to not use swirling motion but straight passes. The process removed some of the stain but the surface stayed relatively even in color. Not perfect but satisfying.

I went through the process as I described it and mostly it all went well. I had to sand the bindings clean after a couple of body sessions because the stain was bleeding on them when I was applying the spit coat. Also the pores of spanish cedar are very large and some (if not most) of the shellac/pumice filler was removed when staining the back so it's going to be more or less an open pore finish for the back (not looking too bad but would've been better if it was perfectly smooth). The sides are fine however.

Now everything is going smooth. Just 1-2 body sessions and then glazing and the finish is complete. It's looking really nice at this point and I'm sure it'll look even better after glazing and maybe a little polishing with meguiars #7. I'll post a couple of pictures in about a week when the guitar is assembled and totally complete.

 

[p45]

awesome explanation thanks =)