Finishing For Dummies

[Aleksi]

Hi everyone,

I'm testing different finishes on my first ever guitar project, a '52 Tele ash body. The idea is to fill the grain with black and the rest of the body in red. I've got some nice black filler from Rothko And Frost and some red Liberon water based dye. The filler should be ok under waterbased finishes.

So I was reading up on the how to apply the finish and the rule seemed to be:

- Stain red
- brush few coats of shellac
- filler
- brush more shellac
- final finish (TruOil in this case).

I'm at the stage where I'm applying the black filler over the red dye / shellac and when I try to sand away the black filler remains I quite easily sand through the shellac and into the red dye.

Is this the only way to do this? I'm guessing that if I start with the black filler, sand it smooth and then use the red dye there's a danger of these two colors blending? Should I just be extra careful when sending (and perhaps apply more than just two or three coats of shellac before filling?)

Best regards,
Aleksi

 

[pinefd]

Hi Aleksi,

First of all, welcome to the forum!

It sounds like you're shooting for a TV type of finish. That being the case, here are a couple of threads that might be worth looking through. And although these threads deal with different colors, the same principle would apply, I believe.

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/luthiers-corner/206611-tv-yellow-other-tv-finishes.html

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/luthiers-corner/133656-tv-yellow-tutorial.html

Best of luck!


Frank

 

[poro78]

The procedure sounds ok.
I'd say just be extra careful with sanding.

I had the same problem finishing my first build (black with red filler) and after all I messed it up.


edit: But what Frank said - check those threads, they are excellent

 

[Aleksi]

Thanks for the welcome and advice! Good to know I'm on the right track. The tutorial thread seems to be missing the pictures, although the text itself is helpful also. One of the problems is that the filler seems to be dry almost instantly after I spread it and it's hard to get most of it off. So there a bunch to sand off. Maybe additional coats of shellac would be ok, I'm guessing ash has plenty of grain to fill.

Br,
Aleksi

 

[poro78]

Don't know much about that filler you're using, I used Timbermate and didn't have any issues with it.

Where in Finland are you?

 

[Aleksi]

I'm in Espoo. Did you find Timbermate locally or did you order from abroad? I couldn't find any colored fillers from the usual hardware stores so I had to go abroad.

 

[poro78]

Same here, didn't find any good fillers here.
I ordered it from StewMac.

 

[scimitar]

I've used the cherry red Rothko and Frost filler on my SG build and I found the same, it dries very quickly, and is quite hard to sand off, however I applied it to the bare wood which probably made it dry quicker but does mean that there was nothing to sand through. The other thing I realised afterwards was that I should have put on a second application since my final finish is far from perfect - worth spending time getting the filling right to save time later.

 

[Aleksi]

Hi scimitar,

I also noticed that only one application of filler doesn't quite fill all grain. What did you put on top of the bare wood / cherry filler? Still thinking filling first and then staining might be ok.

Thank you everyone for all your help so far!

 

[scimitar]

I was doing a traditional Gibson cherry red finish so I filled the sealed with clear followed by a couple of coats of cherry red tinted lacquer and then many coats of clear, all nitro, from Rothko and Frost. Generally very happy with their lacquers and prices are good - slightly alarmed though that after only 6 months I can see some signs of crazing in the lacquer on the back of the body, guess though that is probably a good thing as it must indicate a lack of plasticisers in it, just hope it doesn't all fall off after a year

 

[Aleksi]

Hello everyone,

First off, for any finns looking for info on grain fillers: you can use the Tikkurila Spakkkeli wood filler (can be thinned with just water) and dyed with regular paint colouring pastes from most hardware stores. Works well for grain filling and does not dry instantly when applied.

Ok, now my question: the final step will be the truoil over the shellac. Naturally the shellac needs to be leveled (sanded) before applying truoil. However sanding with mineral spirits (or without) will leave behind some small scratches and white residue. Applying another layer of shellac will make those disappear, truoil will not. So, I apparently have to french polish the shellac somewhat to get it even and make any brush marks to disappear? And then apply truoil in order to get a smooth surface?

Or is there a trick to getting off the brush marks and the small puddles from brushing the shellac? For some reason I thought the truoil would act like shellac and make all my worries disappear

 

[poro78]

Is it dewaxed shellac?

 

[Aleksi]

Hi poro,

Good question! It's Liberon french polish out of a small bottle. So not sure, but if I'd have to guess I'd say yes. It's polish and those should better finish when made from shellac with wax. Indeed, I've read it needs to be dewaxed for other finishes. Didn't remember that...

I've used the Liberon for the first protective coats over the stain. I guess it will be ok to leave those, apply the filler and then start using dewaxed for the coats before truoil? Then it should 'mix' and make those white marks disppear?

 

[poro78]

I don't have a clue.
All I know somebody said "only thing you can put on waxed shellac is waxed shellac".

I guess you just have to test or wait until someone more professional gives you a better advice...

 

[emoney]

Might be a good plan to try a test piece first.

 

[Aleksi]

Yep, will do a test piece with 100% sure dewaxed shellac. But anyone know in theory that should I french polish first before the truoil (with dewaxed shellac) if I want a clean finish?

EDIT: I'm trying these steps on a test piece naturally. However the final coat of truoil was something I didn't even realize to test for some reason. Only thing I've got on the actual body is the stain with some (possibly waxed) shellac. If all else fails I'll skip the truoil as the final finish.

 

[Aleksi]

So the test piece proves it: TruOil over dewaxed shellac works fine and will make all the small scrathes and whiteness go away (just like another layer of shellac).

Also, using a coffee filter to filter the freshly made shellac seems to leave the wax to the filter, producing very clear shellac. Just some small pieces of information for other dummies like me