FAKE 1959 Gibson Les Paul guitars and the factory ledgers. A Wall Street Journal story 7-10-2020

[PGguy]

Has anyone else heard the rumor that one of the "originals" off which Gibson created a CC is actually a fake? That and "which guitars in BOTB aren't real" are two questions that have always intrigued me.

Yes. more than one, the luthier showed me the page his was on and others..., some of these CC's made by the Gibson Custom shop (2014) were sold cheap to Dave's Guitar and some were turned into the Historic spec Standards and painted over series 2016. Another one was a conversion like many Goldtops are done from early 50's, not saying it was a Goldtop

 

[PGguy]

Stuff went missing during the Kalamazoo closing....stuff was trucked to the airport for the auction...well, most of it.

Eric as you know, Ed Roman obtained most of the stuff, he was hired to clean out the old factory He may have put one of these in a safe deposit box or along with his vast stamp collections. He was a luthier to the stars, and did start a History channel show called Guitar King before he passed, sadly missed for his very informative rants.

 

[jan janson]

Trogly had a youtube about it...I think its fascinating...Who has it..? Norm...?
Rebecca

 

[Qam]

Why hasn't anyone made a GuitarFAX serial/history verification website by now?

If the 58-60 ledger turns up it will kick thousands and thousands of fakes off their legit cred to benefit increased values of the true surviving serials many times over.

On the other hand, New Gibson management must be aware of this effect and the guy who holds the original won't come forward any sooner than the new Managers won't admit they have photocopies of the original.

That's my suspicion: that ledger is the one thing preventing Curleigh from counterfeiting those serials, because 9-0663 or whatever can be resurrected fifty times by the Factory at $35k each so long as they can purchase then memoryhole the true record.

 

[eric ernest]

Eric as you know, Ed Roman obtained most of the stuff, he was hired to clean out the old factory He may have put one of these in a safe deposit box or along with his vast stamp collections. He was a luthier to the stars, and did start a History channel show called Guitar King before he passed, sadly missed for his very informative rants.

How can I put this, nicely?

Ed Romans was the biggest crock-of-shit in the entire history of electric guitars.

Hired to clean out the Gibson factory? No.
Obtained most of the stuff? No.
Luthier to the stars? No.
Informative rants? no.

Sadly missed? You may be the only person to ever say that.

Ed Romans was pothead who stayed up late at night smoking dope and writing the most stupid hyperbolic shit known to man.

He's single handedly responsible for the largest treasure trove of misinformation Ive ever come across.

He may only be surpassed in quantity by the corporate media of the last 40 years.

 

[eric ernest]

If the 58-60 ledger turns up it will kick thousands and thousands of fakes off their legit cred to benefit increased values of the true surviving serials many times over.

There are NOT thousands of fakes out there that people think are legit. (See Ed Romans comments.)

 

[eric ernest]

I thought Walter Carter, now the owner of Carter's Vintage in Nashville, TN, had the knowledge. He had the earliest known '59 burst in his shop a year or so ago. How did he verify that? He used to be the Gibson Historian. Maybe they should contact him?

I can assure you they are in contact regularly. The serial number of the first Burst is in the ledger that proceeds the missing one.

Because of a change in the style of the books, and entry stye, Walter Carter thinks the missing books never existed in the first place. The last entry in the previous ledger ends in the middle of the book and is blank from that point forward.

I however, think that due to factory construction and expansion that occurred at the same time of the missing books may have caused some organizational chaos that caused all of the ledgers to be misplaced, requiring a new ledger to be started.

 

[BADMAN67]

I think it will be long gone,lost in the move. As for fake guitars? What is it someone said in 'The Million Dollar Guitar' to paraphrase from memory, 'of the 1200 Les Paul's built between 58-60 only 2000 are known to exist'

 

[sws1]

I can assure you they are in contact regularly. The serial number of the first Burst is in the ledger that proceeds the missing one.

Because of a change in the style of the books, and entry stye, Walter Carter thinks the missing books never existed in the first place. The last entry in the previous ledger ends in the middle of the book and is blank from that point forward.

I however, think that due to factory construction and expansion that occurred at the same time of the missing books may have caused some organizational chaos that caused all of the ledgers to be misplaced, requiring a new ledger to be started.

You beat me to it.

I'm also a believer in the notion that it wasn't someone with incredible forethought about what 59 bursts would be worth. Yes, they were pricey even back then, but I can't imagine someone would intentionally steal the ledger of guitars worth $5-10k (early 80s before the move) so that they could corner the market on fakes.

I'm also think this is a brilliant marketing effort by Gibson, highly coordinated with a piece in the WSJ. (Brand management) Cute reward amount too.

 

[Qam]

The Ed Roman I knew was a man of many medications, of which four may have actually been prescribed by a licensed physician.

 

[Qam]

I was not at the Kalamazoo auction but I know Seymour was, because he talked about it for years and years before showing the Leesona winder he got from it.

In fact, it's all he spoke of to substantiate his Antiquity line (here folks, come to Papa, we got that only original PAF winding machine) even to the present when he still drags that Geo Stevens tabletop out for his NAMM demonstrations... Seymour would know or have heard "who" has or had The Ledger imo.

Until the mid-90's the PAF rewind business was his, everybody went to him including Gibson.

I'd be shocked if Seymour has not expressed any opinion on the matter by now.

 

[eric ernest]

You beat me to it.

I'm also a believer in the notion that it wasn't someone with incredible forethought about what 59 bursts would be worth. Yes, they were pricey even back then, but I can't imagine someone would intentionally steal the ledger of guitars worth $5-10k (early 80s before the move) so that they could corner the market on fakes.

Gibson employees as much if not more than anyone knew what the "sweet spot" for all Gibson Guitars were. That's your motivation...

 

[PGguy]

I was not at the Kalamazoo auction but I know Seymour was, because he talked about it for years and years before showing the Leesona winder he got from it.

In fact, it's all he spoke of to substantiate his Antiquity line (here folks, come to Papa, we got that only original PAF winding machine) even to the present when he still drags that Geo Stevens tabletop out for his NAMM demonstrations... Seymour would know or have heard "who" has or had The Ledger imo.

Until the mid-90's the PAF rewind business was his, everybody went to him including Gibson.

I'd be shocked if Seymour has not expressed any opinion on the matter by now.

Yes, Jon Gundry of Throbak has both as well for his lines.

 

[pmonk]

Ed Romans was pothead who stayed up late at night smoking dope and writing the most stupid hyperbolic shit known to man.

He sounds like 99% of the people who post on the internet?

 

[PGguy]

Gibson can not even verify a guitar from the Norlin years

I can assure you they are in contact regularly. The serial number of the first Burst is in the ledger that proceeds the missing one.

Because of a change in the style of the books, and entry stye, Walter Carter thinks the missing books never existed in the first place. The last entry in the previous ledger ends in the middle of the book and is blank from that point forward.

I however, think that due to factory construction and expansion that occurred at the same time of the missing books may have caused some organizational chaos that caused all of the ledgers to be misplaced, requiring a new ledger to be started.

 

[PGguy]

No records to speak of prior to the mid early 80's held by Gibson

 

[PGguy]

This is the best guy for verification

Did Mark get hit by a US Post truck, or is he still working for Gibson?

 

[PGguy]

Also, where does Joe keep pulling these flying V's out of?, must be painful, looks like a mod Hamer replica he had in his gear rig

 

[PGguy]

Yeah, Rumble seat, hold on to your but and let er rip

 

[PGguy]

And even before Gibson had the Slash Corsa Rossa, here it is, the first CC/Standard replica of a replica next to a Derrig/Max

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