Epiphone Les Paul Trussrod Problem

TheKat

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Hello friends,

I'm desperately in need of some advice. I bought a used Epiphone, and it came to me like this (I removed the nut myself to assess the damage, the photo is made while I applied a bit of pressure to the neck to open the crack)



The seller offered me full refund / guitar back - but I tend to go in the direction of partial refund and trying to repair the guitar myself because it sounds really sweet.

Never mind the crack at the moment, I first want to know about the trussrod. It seems it came out quite a bit (so much it actually bends the trussrod cover).

After some google and mylespaul searches, I still don't know how this trussrod really works, the most I could infer that it isn't held in its place by plates as the PRS trussrods.

So could I just (carefully) hammer the trussrod back down or do I need to remove the fretboard to do some repair work?

(By the way, the neck seems to be perfectly straight and the guitar is quite playable besides the D string buzzing quite a bit when played around the 3rd fret, but of course this could have various reasons)

So please do not hesitate to answer as I will have to decide what to do today or tomorrow!
 

ARandall

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Get refund.

On a real Gibson it might be worth buggerising about with....an Epi - no.
 

TheKat

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Well....

thanks for the answer A., but I didn't take your advice.

I pushed the trussrod back into the neck until i noticed resistance - and it seems to work - unbelievable.... I loosened it until a got a gentle relief, although this seems to be mainly in the upper third of the neck. But there is no more heavy buzzing of the bass strings. The pull of the strings actually seems to close the neck crack - the laquer cracks smoothen out - but I will look to repair this before it gets any worse via the vibrations.

One of the reasons to not take the full refund is that I still have an emergency exit - I will still more or less get my investment back when I take the guitar apart and sell the parts, cause there are some good ones on it.

:wave:So, still the question, who knows how the trussrod of a modern Chinese made Epiphone works? :hmm:
 

B. Howard

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That looks like one of the new Epiphone 2-way rods. They are junk. If someone tries to add relief into the neck by just turning the nut (or turns it the wrong direction) they break. The second adjustment direction is accomplished by a sleeve welded over the nut. The weld usually breaks as can be seen in this pic (not my pic)
https://flic.kr/p/bPwAFc
 
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That looks like one of the new Epiphone 2-way rods. They are junk. If someone tries to add relief into the neck by just turning the nut (or turns it the wrong direction) they break. The second adjustment direction is accomplished by a sleeve welded over the nut. The weld usually breaks as can be seen in this pic (not my pic)
https://flic.kr/p/bPwAFc
I haven't found them to be junk at all. They're actually a very solid and good two way design. However we have had a number of them move (where you could seemingly pull them right out).

For your situation I would loosen the truss to its static position (not correcting either way). You should then be able to take a blunt instrument (I'll often use the square end of my handled socket driver) and tap the truss back to its original position - don't kill it in, just get it back to its original home and stop.

You then set the guitar upright, take some thin cyano and drizzle some down the side of the truss nut - don't make it go inside (the truss nut), down the outside. It will go down the length of the rod and keep it from moving around again once it cures. This seems counterintuitive but the truss is self enveloped and you will not fixate the mechanism by glueing with the CA.

Let that dry for awhile - really overnight is not a bad idea.

You can then address that crack by prying the fb up ever so gently with the wedge of your choice (small wood wedge, small flatblade screwdriver, etc). You want to get it open enough to where you can let some wood glue flow down - sometimes if I can lift it enough I'll work the glue in with a very thin spatula or even sometimes thin pieces of business card, cut ends of plain guitar strings - I've used all these depending on the crack.

Pull your wedge out, wipe away the squeeze-out, press on it hard with your fingers, wipe squeeze-out again then clamp (I typically use a cam clamp with a neck caul beneath), keep wiping the squeeze-out so you don't have hard chunks of dry glue to deal with later. If you're not familiar with clamping it's a good idea to get your clamp setup ready (whatever combo of clamp and caul you're using) and do a 'dry clamp' first to observe that:
a. your clamp seats well without slipping off and
b. the crack closes up well

All the above is assuming you do want to spend the time and not get the refund!

Edit:, oops, OP was 2013 :)
 

Jurka

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That looks like one of the new Epiphone 2-way rods. They are junk. If someone tries to add relief into the neck by just turning the nut (or turns it the wrong direction) they break. The second adjustment direction is accomplished by a sleeve welded over the nut. The weld usually breaks as can be seen in this pic (not my pic)
https://flic.kr/p/bPwAFc
Thank you!
So, is it normaly (walking forward and reverse) for this truss rod?
 
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if it happens regularly enough to know about the specific problem with them, id rate them as junk with a bad design. Maybe thats just me.
With that logic everything that has occasional failures (which many things do) are all junk - let's put every American car in there.

With this truss it doesn't happen that often and it's just a question of the mount where I've seen them work themselves loose - usually as a result of shock (like shipping) or it getting dropped. Out of hundreds (and I'm into the hundreds at this point) there have only been a couple failures. That's a pretty good record but then that's just me.

I'm not trying to defend the company but this his been a good rod in my line of work.
 

pshupe

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I've always wondered what holds the truss rod in when the route is constant and comes out the headstock? Is it just friction? Should you be putting in silicone, or would that help, in new construction for a two way rod, like the hot rods??

Cheers Peter.
 
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I've always wondered what holds the truss rod in when the route is constant and comes out the headstock? Is it just friction? Should you be putting in silicone, or would that help, in new construction for a two way rod, like the hot rods??

Cheers Peter.
I've used the hot rods quite a bit. I like to glue the ends inside (CA is fine) plus I make sure they also get pressured by the fretboard glue as well (taking care not to glue the moving rod,,,,which I've done)! I've also secured them by pounding in thin wood shims between the sides of the truss rod ends and the sides of the channel wall they rest in.
 

Skyjerk

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With that logic everything that has occasional failures (which many things do) are all junk - let's put every American car in there.
If it happens often enough that it becomes a "known issue" then yes. Its either a design or manufacturing defect. If its known that the stresses of shipping can work them loose then they need to figure out how to stop it from happening.

If the designers and manufacturers know about it and dont fix it, then they made a business decision to knowingly not correct the problem because it would cost them more than maybe replacing some when people gripe. American cars included.

Sadly, this is how the world has come to operate.

Just because everyone does it, and everyone just accepts it doesnt mean its not junk :)
 
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If it happens often enough that it becomes a "known issue" then yes. Its either a design or manufacturing defect. If its known that the stresses of shipping can work them loose then they need to figure out how to stop it from happening.

If the designers and manufacturers know about it and dont fix it, then they made a business decision to knowingly not correct the problem because it would cost them more than maybe replacing some when people gripe. American cars included.

Sadly, this is how the world has come to operate.

Just because everyone does it, and everyone just accepts it doesnt mean its not junk :)
Ok great, then let's talk about the Gibson headstock and its propensity to get snapped off - Junk?

Gibson could so easily fix this design flaw but they don't.
 

Skyjerk

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Ok great, then let's talk about the Gibson headstock and its propensity to get snapped off - Junk?

Gibson could so easily fix this design flaw but they don't.
Yes. Bad design.

Just because Gibson made it doesnt mean its not junk
 

Darell

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If Gibsons were designed to be dropped and the headstocks still broke off, I would say that's a bad design. But they're not designed to be dropped. If the headstocks broke off during the guitar's normal use, I would say that's a bad design too.
By dropping the guitar you've exceeded it's normal design capacity, so, if it breaks that's on you, not Gibson.

Just an observation,

Darell
 

Skyjerk

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If Gibsons were designed to be dropped and the headstocks still broke off, I would say that's a bad design. But they're not designed to be dropped. If the headstocks broke off during the guitar's normal use, I would say that's a bad design too.
By dropping the guitar you've exceeded it's normal design capacity, so, if it breaks that's on you, not Gibson.

Just an observation,

Darell
In retrospect it is a bad design because decades of experience has shown clearly its a spot that gets hit frequently in normal use.

Every guitar player in the world leans their axe up against the amp or a chair, and then grabs for it in slow motion horror as it slides off and falls to the floor.

Its normal design capacity should not be exceeded by normal use, and like it or not thats normal use.
 

Darell

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I'd argue that not "every" guitar player leans their guitar against a chair or amp and knocks it over, but some do. I use a stand and other's use a case but I see your point.

A champagne glass is a good design for its purpose. It has a stem so your body heat doesn't transfer, made of a material that doesn't effect taste, and a deep, narrow bowl that cuts down the surface area exposed. Unfortunately those design characteristics also make them easy to knock over and break. I don't think that makes them a bad design; they're not meant to knocked over even though it happens from time to time.

I was just expressing, in my opinion, that the Gibson neck design is not bad under normal use.

Darell
 

B. Howard

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I haven't found them to be junk at all. They're actually a very solid and good two way design. However we have had a number of them move (where you could seemingly pull them right out).
I have seen enough of them that have broken just like in the pic I linked too to say it is a problem. It's not just Epiphone that uses these type rods but lot's of other imported brands as well.
 




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