Dumb amp question - 2x12 vs. 4x12 cabs

[Leee]

Here’s a dumb amp/cab question for the pros out there.

So I’m seriously considering throwing down the dough for a Matchless HC-30 head.

And a Matchless cab.
But which one?

The ESD212 has a mixed pair of Celestion Creamback speakers, a G12H-75 and a G12M-65.
4-ohm load, rated at 60 watts.

The ES412 doubles this to a pair of each speaker for a total of four in a larger cabinet.
The load doubles to 8 ohms, rated for 120 watts.

The head is “conservatively rated” at 30 watts output, but I’m guessing it’s capable of significantly more.

I’m sure there’s no way I could ever hurt the 2x12 cabinet, and it’s surely up to the task.

The 4x12 cabinet only costs like $150 more (presuming I could ever find one) and there’s the cool factor.

Is there ANY logical reason to seriously consider the 4x12 cabinet for this?
It would have to be used, because Matchless is not building a 4x12 at this time.
So maybe the used price would be a little better than the $1,000 for the Matchless 2x12 cab?

Just exploring my options here…

 

[Juan Tumani]

I don't know much about the specifics of speakers/cabs. I only know despite preferring the sound of 4x12 over 2x12 I have no interest in ever moving a 4x12 cabinet. So I use two 2x12 cabs.

I'll let someone smarter chime in on ohms and loads.

 

[Deftone]

Is there ANY logical reason to seriously consider the 4x12 cabinet for this?

I'll try:
The logical reason would be you are playing outdoor gigs with no P.A., you might want a 4x12 over a 2x12.

Other than that, I agree with Juan...4x12's sound better than 2x12's. However, a quality over sized 2x12 sounds pretty good.

"Celestion G12H75 Creamback and Celestion G12M-65 Creamback" has got to be a nice combo.

If you can find one, I'd get the 4x12 myself.

 

[AJK1]

I’ve always thought that Vox type amps sound the best as a 2x12 as they are so midrangey that a 4x12 just gets too muddy and bloatey
Every awesome guitarist I’ve seen using a Matchless has had a 2x12 setup

 

[ErictheRed]

I disagree that a 4x12" will necessarily sound better than a 2x12", it all depends (like everything with guitar). It'll definitely sound different, but depending on the dimensions cabs can sound very different even with the same speakers. I've swapped the same speakers around a Mesa Oversized 4x12, Traditional 4x12 (it's amazing how different those sound when they're only different by a few inches in height), Vertical and Standard 2x12" cabs, a 2x12" Lonestar cab that I can run open or closed, a 1x12" open 23" wide cabinet, and some from other brands. They all sound quite a bit different "in the room" even with the same speakers, so it depends on what you want.

Ultimately you'd have to play both cabs to compare the sounds.

One reason to possibly prefer the 4x12" is that it might have casters and the other might not? It's pretty easy to wheel around a 4x12", easier than moving a 2x12" without casters. On the other hand they take up a lot of space in a car and are very heavy to load and unload. The other reason to prefer one would be greater sound dispersion and more efficiency for an outdoor gig.

For most of us though, the 2x12" is far more practical and you might even prefer the sound of it. 4x12s are often dirt cheap on Craigslist, or the same price as a 2x12", because few people want them, so that might be a consideration also.

 

[hbucker]

You can split hairs on tonal quality all day long, which is valid. But the practicality of a 212 over a 412 for the average weekend warrior cannot be emphasized enough.

If you don't imagine ever needing to move it out of your practice room/studio at home, none of this matters. But if you're going to move it much at all, the novelty of the 412 will wear off. And respectfully, the difference between the 212 and a 412 will not be the difference between you being heard or not without a mic.

Listen closely to both cabs. If you hear a noticeable difference, let that be a guide. But if they are close at all, my recommendation for the long run is the 212.

 

[ErictheRed]

I don't think that you'd ever actually regret getting the 2x12, you just might be left wondering about a 4x12. It will work for every situation though. You might regret the 4x12 if you find yourself moving it much.

 

[bluesoul]

The head is “conservatively rated” at 30 watts output, but I’m guessing it’s capable of significantly more.

I am a matchless guy (HC-30, Clubman, Chieftain, Spitfire, Nighthawk and HC-15).
The C-30 amps are seriously loud (even at 1/2 power). Glorious sounding when you can play them at band volume. I would say volume wise they are going to be like a strong 50 watt Marshall.

The 4 x 12 is pretty overkill IMO. The ESD 212 is the way to go! Matchless amps have plenty of low end....the 4 x 12 thump is not necessary. 4 x 12 is pretty cool tho

Here are a couple tips!
The 4 inputs are useful. The only amp I have ever had where I can use the low input. If you are going to run: clean/dirty with A/B box the low input can help balancing the 2 channels.
Another thing you can do: Jumper the 2 channels....blending the two allows more EQ options. That is my favorite way to run the amp! Also you can use a channel to bring in effects. Because you have 2 separate effects loops...you can use one channel mainly as an "effects amp".
You will need a couple of insert cables for the loops (each has one input/output jack).

Report back after you plug that rascal in!

 

[Leee]

Right on, @bluesoul
I had several 4x12 Marshall cabinets over the years.
But I was after something completely different.

I’m well aware of the physicality, moving a 4x12 and the room required for it.

More than anything, I like the idea of four bigger cones to move a little more air.
At lower volumes, they sound a little more lush.

Bearing in mind the whole Ohm’s Law thing, I wondered how differently the head would respond to the 4-ohm load of 2 speakers, or the 8-ohm load for 4 speakers.

Would it make any difference at all unless I was driving the hell out of it?

Like the reference to the 50-watt Marshall, I just don’t see those kinds of volume levels being a common thing.

 

[redking]

I didn't know that Matchless made 4x12's, but I associate that amp's character with an open back 2x12 type of vibe.

 

[bluesoul]

Right on, @bluesoul
I had several 4x12 Marshall cabinets over the years.
But I was after something completely different.

I’m well aware of the physicality, moving a 4x12 and the room required for it.

More than anything, I like the idea of four bigger cones to move a little more air.
At lower volumes, they sound a little more lush.

Bearing in mind the whole Ohm’s Law thing, I wondered how differently the head would respond to the 4-ohm load of 2 speakers, or the 8-ohm load for 4 speakers.

Would it make any difference at all unless I was driving the hell out of it?

Like the reference to the 50-watt Marshall, I just don’t see those kinds of volume levels being a common thing.

As mentioned above...

Every awesome guitarist I’ve seen using a Matchless has had a 2x12 setup

There as a reason for that!
The speaker choice Matchless went with just seems to work. Also I think the semi open back helps
disperse some sound (which is good).

I’ve always thought that Vox type amps sound the best as a 2x12 as they are so midrangey that a 4x12 just gets too muddy and bloatey

Very good point...agree!

Hey if it was a JCM 800 head....4 x 12 all the way!!! (if ya don't mind the size).
A JCM 800 has a tight low end to begin with...a 4 x 12 gives that thump. I would be concerned that a 4 x12 with a HC-30 would have too much boomy low end.

 

[bluesoul]

Here is some Matchless porn for morning motivation

 

[ErictheRed]

Right on, @bluesoul

Bearing in mind the whole Ohm’s Law thing, I wondered how differently the head would respond to the 4-ohm load of 2 speakers, or the 8-ohm load for 4 speakers.

Would it make any difference at all unless I was driving the hell out of it?

There's a lot of misconceptions and flat-out incorrect information regarding speaker loads and impedance matches, etc. I'm not sure what you mean by the "whole Ohm's Law thing" exactly, but if there are 4 Ohm and 8 Ohm taps on your amp to select, then when you select the output impedance that matches the cabinet impedance you are getting the maximum power transfer from the amp to the load. Any mismatch in impedance results in less power being transferred.

In theory if you're using all of the same speaker and cab types (let's say that you're comparing two identical 2x12" 8 Ohm cabs in parallel to using just one of them at a time), then the tone should be the same regardless of whether you're using the 4 Ohm or 8 Ohm tap. In real life this isn't usually the case, though: higher impedance speakers have more high end for one. The speaker cabs that you're choosing between all have the same 8 Ohm speakers in them, so the tone should be more consistent comparing those 2x12" and 4x12" cabs. However, the physical dimensions of the cabs are going to create bigger differences in tone than you might imagine, and lastly your transformer is not wound 100% perfectly and the magnetic field isn't perfectly uniform, so there might be a slight perceived tonal difference switching from the 4 Ohm to the 8 Ohm tap even if everything else were completely equal (kind of doubtful to me with a quality transformer, but the possibility exists). The trouble is, not everything else is ever completely equal.

 

[bluesoul]

The ESD 2x12 is 4 ohm (per factory) btw.

 

[Deftone]

Should have said "IMHO....4x12's sound better than 2x12's" I have no experience with any Matchless products.

I do have four 2x12's in all different sizes and styles...and five 4x12's. I like the 4x12's for what I do and with my amps. YMMV.

After rolling a bunch of different speakers recently, a 2x12 is also nice because it's gonna save you some $ on speakers.

 

[bluesoul]

After rolling a bunch of different speakers recently, a 2x12 is also nice because it's gonna save you some $ on speakers.

And a lot of time! Removing all those screws on a 4 x 12 just to get the bak pannel off

Back in my pre-ban Gearpage days: A lot of Macthless threads.... most matchless users kept the original speakers or returned to them. That has been my experience as well.

 

[Deftone]

And a lot of time! Removing all tose screws on a 4 x 12 just to get the bak pannel off

Back in my pre-ban Gearpage days: A lot of Macthless threads.... most matchless users kept the original speakers or returned to them. That has been my experience as well.

I really like the G12M-65 Creambacks, have not tried the G12H-75's.

 

[cherrysunburst00]

My dilemma is 212 vs 410. I only play at home

 

[bluesoul]

My dilemma is 212 vs 410. I only play at home

Both?

 

[cherrysunburst00]

Both?

Believe me, that has crossed my mind many times