"downtown" Jerry Brown signs the Dream Act

[The_Sentry]

So....question.....

Why would Brown sign this one into law?
Why does the government continue to leave its borders open while offering amnesty? No other nation I know of does this.

I'm of this impression:

They want to sustain the Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid systems.

Hear me out on this:

Back when Social Security was implemented, you had 12 workers supporting every retiree. By and large...people didn't live as long back then. The general assumption was that the government was subsidizing the incomes of people who lived on average 5 to 10 years after their retirement.

Today? It's a 1:3 ratio. This is coming in light of how the US government is hard pressed to show just how they're going to meet the obligations of social security and medicare with the impending retirement of the baby boomers.

What's their solution? They want more workers that they er, hope will pay into the system. They're praying for tax revenue. So, they leave the borders open, they offer amnesty. They want the tax money.

And in this case, I suppose they're hoping said migrants will land higher paying jobs so they can pay even more.

All of these issues are intertwined monetarily. It's not by accident or gross neglegence that the government is taking certain actions while ignoring other responsibilities.

In the case of Brown....I live in Northern Califronia (pretty close to where Jess lives, actually). I would love to see the State split since the south with its bigger population base typically gets their way in politics. (there's also some serious issues with water rights here....but that's another can of worms.)

Either way....I am applying the "Why do this" and "Follow the money" mentality.

Decisions, decisions. What should they do here? Continue to pay for programs they can't afford, or do this? (And who knows...maybe it'll come down to both before too much longer.)

And PS: No, I'm not in the business of telling things people wanna hear...

http://www.newsmild.com/debt-commissioners-baby-boomers-will-crush-social-security-medicare/

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

 

[PunkerJon]

Until American citizens are willing to work as hard and for the same pay as illegal immigrants are things will never change. Americans want to get paid $20 an hour with full benefits and a pension to pick tomatoes and pay .10¢ a pound for them. Then they see they can make more going on unemployment with 98% less effort... And illegals are the problem?

 

[Roberteaux]

Here in lovely central Flo'duh, we have lots and lots of Mexican folk about. I live in Volusia County, which is one of the biggest fern-producing areas in the en-tire world, and guess who's out there working the in the ferneries? Hint: it ain't a bunch of guys who swam over from Sweden.

The really big ferneries are all located in the northwest part of the county, in such towns as Deleon Springs, Barberville, and Seville. When I was a deputy sheriff, the policy was that we didn't mess with the Mexicans unless they were into some sort of public disturbance, and/or violent behavior. This didn't happen much, though. Really, they were very polite people, tended to be uncommonly quiet, and were somewhat shy when some Yanqui cop like me spoke to them. They also tended to their own affairs without dragging us into it, and when they liked you it really showed. I was able to make a few friends from among them, and this sometimes came in handy when it came to the procurement of raw field intelligence. You wouldn't believe some of the things those guys filled me in on. Crazy.

One day I was out with another deputy, serving arrest warrants. We were in Seville, near the county line, and we drove by a guy's house looking to see if his truck was there. It wasn't, which prolly meant he had flown the coop (he knew we were after him), and so after passing his empty-looking house I pulled into a driveway off Route 17, so as to turn around and head back towards our substation.

There was a lot of traffic on Rt. 17, and so I had to sit there for a minute to let it all pass before I could back out onto the highway. Meanwhile, there was a house sitting there at the end of the driveway, and as my partner and I checked it out, a bunch of younger Mexican guys began to run out of every door, tearing off towards the woods behind the house. A couple of them even jumped out of the windows-- and all just to run away from us. They were all illegals working the ferneries who had apparently mistaken use for Border Patrol, and I have to smile as I recall that those guys were laughing their heads off as they came swarming out of that house like that. It would have been a merry chase except for one thing-- we knew the score, and the score was this: one does not mess with the fern workers for no good reason unless one wishes to have one the big boys who bankrolled your sheriff's last election to be really, really mad at you.

And so we just sat there and laughed at all the shenanigans taking place before our startled eyes. Ain't nothing like pulling into a driveway and having about twenty dudes go jumping out windows and running out back doors while trying to escape from you-- especially when you had no idea that they were even there to begin with.

But hey: our job wasn't really to pop illegals to begin with. We were working a VICAP detail, and were hunting felony offenders, who are a whole lot more dangerous than just a bunch of sprinting Mexican fern workers. We watched with amusement as the Mexican guys flipped us the bird as they ran off, and I flipped on the PA and hollered, "Alto, pendejos! Soy policia!" which caused one to turn around and flip me double birds before vanishing into the palmetto thickets. I laughed my ass off!

I said to my partner, Larry, "So hey: you wanna actually chase them?"

He yawned and said, "Nah. Too hot out, and those suckers can outrun us any day of the week to begin with."

I giggled at his reply and said, "Yeah, but damn! Seems like a waste for them to run like hell without at least being given the courtesy of somebody chasing them."

He smirked, "Ah, they won't mind. But hey: if you wanna go for it, go for it. I'll sit here and wait until you come back."

By way of reply, I snicked the car into reverse, swept back out onto the now-vacant highway, and rolled south while still laughing my head off. It was near lunch time, and the guy we were really after was clearly in the wind. We were heading back to the station, empty handed... again.

I shrugged. There are some things that a man simply cannot do anything about. And that, gentlemen, is how it really is sometimes.

--R

 

[lunchbox]

It's not my job to prove your claims. You make the claim, you support it. Or, you lose the chance to change my mind.

As far as reading goes, I do plenty of it. I wouldn't mind reading that book, but my implicit point, which I had assumed you intelligent enough to pick up, is that I don't have the book handy at the moment and don't know that the numbers you put up are in any way accurate.

Th burden of evidence is on the claimant. Now, back up your claim.

I know how it works. I do not have the book either. I borrowed it a few years ago from a co-worker, so looking it up for you is not an option unless I buy one or get it from the library. I also cannot seem to find the data from his book online. I figure that if it's so important to you that you'll take the time to read it yourself.

That's a different issue. I do understand what you point out, but that wasn't my point; you're raising that point without answering mine, which is that not everyone pays taxes equally, and some pay no income tax at all, and that furthermore, at least two job fields where that is regularly practiced are populated by immigrants, and it is my contention based on personal experience that a substantial number of those employed in those fields are illegal.

Now, you can answer my point, or you can continue to try to dodge it. It doesn't matter to me, except that further dodging will only undermine the point you seek to make.

I already answered it, you just didn't like how I answered it.

I have not disputed that there are illegals that work in Cali 'under the table' and pay no income taxes. But...

a) Many of these illegal 'under the table' salaries would be exempt (or near) because those people would fall under the IRS's poverty guidelines.

b) They do pay taxes in other forms, which they may never see a return on.

Good to see you know your math, but I'm thinking you failed biology. Go back to school and call me when you graduate.

Fail attempt at humor, and quite the zinger.

And how would you propose to replace the services they provide?

Enslave the blacks again.

Like it or not, for better or worse, our lovely standard of living that you enjoy here in the US can only be accomplished by using people as near slave labor, which is the way a good portion of these people are treated, and it's still a better life than what they had in their home country.

Actually, it is true, no matter if you call it "migration" or "return to one's homeland" or what-have-you. And H. Sapiens displaced H. Neanderthalensis in both Europe and Asia Minor. You are, I presume, H. Sapiens. By your logic, you should return to Africa.

Fail, because you've actually gotten it backwards and supported my position.

I'm the proponent for migration, you're the opponent to migration. I've said that people have been migrating since time began, and I don't have a problem with that.

You, however, have intimated that since we now have arbitrary borders to our nations that (illegal) Human migration, a natural occurrence, needs to stop for the sake of your tax dollars.

So, by your own logic, you should be packing to go back to Africa as we speak.

Yes...Sure, no problem:...You see? That's how you reply when someone asks for your sources.

From one childish, egocentric to another!

Egocentric | Define Egocentric at Dictionary.com

EGOCENTRIC
1.Having or regarding the self or the individual as the center of all things: an egocentric philosophy that ignores social causes.

2. Having little or no regard for interests, beliefs, or attitudes other than one's own; self-centered: an egocentric person; egocentric demands upon the time and patience of others.

In that case, I'll pass. I regard residency as "paying into the system".

Great, so you agree with me that, since illegals also pay taxes into our system, even illegals are residents.

Oh, there's the "NO U" thing, in a different guise. <sigh> I speak my mind. If you don't like questions, feel free to ignore me.

Oh, you know I was just being as silly as you were in your previous post. Sometimes dumb comments merit nothing more than a dumb answer, so I obliged.

I guess the short of this whole subject would be:

I like to play the long game, you know, plan ahead. I feel that with the low college graduation rate for Mexican/Latino/Hispanic migrants that giving a few of them a leg up through a small portion of my taxes will be beneficial to our society as a whole in the long run. It may inspire others like them to also attend university. This could be the beginning of an upward trend for migrants with regard to education, and therefore better working prospects in the future, and therefore less poverty and crime. That's not to mention that they will then be able to acquire higher paying jobs with which they will eventually contribute more in taxes to the system.

You on the other hand seem to only be looking at 'my taxes' in the now. You don't seem to be able to look forward to see the benefit of what a good education like this might bring to our community as a whole. This is another example of your egocentric, childish behavior.

I've stated my position, and it's unpopular. I get it, so I'm done with this thread now.

 

[a Mad Cow]

I hate rap

that was the point



a rap about the DREAM act

 

[SteveGangi]

I'm just sick (and tired) of every sumbitch that comes down the pike, sticking his hand in MY pocket, just to give it away or piss it away to someone else. Enough is enough.

 

[Scooter2112]

I'm just sick (and tired) of every sumbitch that comes down the pike, sticking his hand in MY pocket, just to give it away or piss it away to someone else. Enough is enough.

You're starting to sound like a Tea Partier.

 

[bigdaddy496]

im so sick of this illegal immigration issue. seriously, send them home. it doesnt matter if they were raised here. send them home to country of origin/birth. and no more anchor babies. this b/s has gone on for way too long. its not racism, its the law. go somewhere else if you cant deal with it.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I know how it works. I do not have the book either. I borrowed it a few years ago from a co-worker, so looking it up for you is not an option unless I buy one or get it from the library. I also cannot seem to find the data from his book online. I figure that if it's so important to you that you'll take the time to read it yourself.

Indeed, I'll look it up. But this conversation wasn't happening later, and quite frankly, touting something you can't support is not a good way to be convincing.

I already answered it, you just didn't like how I answered it.

I have not disputed that there are illegals that work in Cali 'under the table' and pay no income taxes. But...

a) Many of these illegal 'under the table' salaries would be exempt (or near) because those people would fall under the IRS's poverty guidelines.

Have you seen construction wages lately?

b) They do pay taxes in other forms, which they may never see a return on.

Granted, in some cases. In other cases, they see plenty of return on their taxes. And in other cases, the see plenty of return, and no taxes at all.

Fail attempt at humor, and quite the zinger.

That was all that a retarded comment like "send 7/8 back" merits.

Enslave the blacks again.

Like it or not, for better or worse, our lovely standard of living that you enjoy here in the US can only be accomplished by using people as near slave labor, which is the way a good portion of these people are treated, and it's still a better life than what they had in their home country.

I don't know why you think I enjoy a high standard of living. I don't.

Fail, because you've actually gotten it backwards and supported my position.

I'm the proponent for migration, you're the opponent to migration. I've said that people have been migrating since time began, and I don't have a problem with that.

No, you're wrong. I do not oppose migration. I oppose illegal immigration. That's a different kettle of fish.

You, however, have intimated that since we now have arbitrary borders to our nations that (illegal) Human migration, a natural occurrence, needs to needs to stop for the sake of your tax dollars.

Again, I'm not saying it needs to stop. I'm saying it needs to happen under guidelines which we, the taxpaying citizens, have laid down.

So, by your own logic, you should be packing to go back to Africa as we speak.

By my own logic, I should enter those countries legally, should I decide to move there. That is the only conclusion you can logically draw here.

From one childish, egocentric to another!

Speak for yourself. I can see your point, I merely disagree with it.

Great, so you agree with me that, since illegals also pay taxes into our system, even illegals are residents.

Actually, no. Residency is determined by where one lives, not by the taxes one pays.

Oh, you know I was just being as silly as you were in your previous post. Sometimes dumb comments merit nothing more than a dumb answer, so I obliged.

Sure thing.

I guess the short of this whole subject would be:

I like to play the long game, you know, plan ahead. I feel that with the low college graduation rate for Mexican/Latino/Hispanic migrants that giving a few of them a leg up through a small portion of my taxes will be beneficial to our society as a whole in the long run. It may inspire others like them to also attend university. This could be the beginning of an upward trend for migrants with regard to education, and therefore better working prospects in the future, and therefore less poverty and crime. That's not to mention that they will then be able to acquire higher paying jobs with which they will eventually contribute more in taxes to the system.

I don't doubt the benefits of higher education. What I want, however, is for those benefits to accrue to those who abide by the laws we've laid down in this country.

You on the other hand seem to only be looking at 'my taxes' in the now.

No, you've once again missed my point.

You don't seem to be able to look forward to see the benefit of what a good education like this might bring to our community as a whole.

Certainly I do, as noted above; I simply wish to establish standards by which those benefits are meted out, with one of those standards being "adherence to our laws". If you're too ideological to read that opinion without getting your panties in a wad, that's not my problem. Your position, that people who break the law ought to receive the same benefits as those who abide it, seems terribly short-sighted to me.

This is another example of your egocentric, childish behavior.

... he said in a fit of maturity. Your inability to see the issue from any position other than your own indicts you on this same charge.

I've stated my position, and it's unpopular. I get it, so I'm done with this thread now.

It might be more popular if it had better supporting arguments. Perhaps if you return you'll have them in your possession?

 

[Jessenoah]

it's amazing how you guys spend the time to get all of the quotes right just so you can rebuttal them

 

[Luckynumber3]

"On his final day to act on more than 140 bills, Gov. Jerry Brown on Sunday waded into sensitive areas of health care and law enforcement, signing a bill requiring health plans to cover a key autism treatment and another that protects illegal immigrant drivers at police checkpoints."​

Jerry Brown OKs bills on autism, unlicensed drivers | Page 2 of 2

Looks like illegal immigrants can't be arrested for driving without a liscense now either (page 2).

Im pretty sure that your average citizen can...

This is further proof I guess that the citizen and voter means nothing and that they would rather have a illegal immigrant love them.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

it's amazing how you guys spend the time to get all of the quotes right just so you can rebuttal them

It's no time at all to type in "[/quote]" and "

". I think that any rebuttal worth posting is worth posting clearly, in an easily understood format.

 

[Jessenoah]

Im not bashing, Im just sayin', I dont even take the time to form concise sentences and you guys are perfectly formatting your rebuttals

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

This is further proof I guess that the citizen and voter means nothing and that they would rather have a illegal immigrant love them.

The text of the law mentions no exceptional treatment for illegal aliens:

(c) Notwithstanding Section 14602.6, Section 14607.6, or subdivision (p) of Section 22651, a peace officer or any other authorized person shall not cause the impoundment of a vehicle at a sobriety checkpoint established pursuant to this section or any other law, unless at least one of the following applies:

(1) The driver of the vehicle is suspected of driving in violation of Section 14601, 14601.2, 14601.3, 14601.5, 23140, or 23152.

(2) The vehicle is subject to impoundment pursuant to Section 14602.7.

(3) There is probable cause to believe that the vehicle was used as the means of committing a public offense, other than a violation of Section 12500 or 14604.

(4) There is probable cause to believe that the vehicle is itself evidence that tends to show that a crime has been committed or that the vehicle contains evidence, that cannot readily be removed, that tends to show that a crime has been committed, other than a violation of Section 12500 or 14604.

(5) The driver of the vehicle is not driving with a valid driver's license and none of the following apply:

(A) The driver is able to obtain a validly licensed driver to drive the vehicle.
(B) (i) Notwithstanding Sections 12500 and 16020, the driver is able to park or remove the vehicle in a manner that does not impede traffic or threaten public safety until a validly licensed driver can
retrieve the car or until the checkpoint ends.
(ii) The state or local governmental agency that established or conducted the checkpoint pursuant to subdivision (a) shall not be liable for any claims related to the parking or removal of the vehicle as described in clause (i).
(C) A peace officer, or a similarly authorized traffic enforcement officer, is able to readily and lawfully remove the vehicle to a place that does not impede traffic or threaten public safety.
(d) This section does not authorize a combined sobriety checkpoint and vehicle inspection program.

AB 353 (Allen and Cedillo): Vehicles: checkpoints. (California Assembly Bill)

 

[Skintaster]

Just one observation. If anyone's quality of life would suffer without having a population of people working under difficult or dangerous conditions for near slave wages, and that population shouldn't legally be here anyway.... Well, your quality of life might just have to suffer then. There's two sides to this issue, and a continually reliance on a workforce that will allow us to exploit them because it's better than what they have back home... I have a problem with that.

If a person's lifestyle is made possible by exploitation or abuse of others, then that's just another reason to oppose illegal immigration. I don't personally care if the average American can no longer afford to eat out three or four times a week, or has to do their own yard work, or can't afford a nanny.

 

[SteveGangi]

You're starting to sound like a Tea Partier.

Well played.

 

[Luckynumber3]

The text of the law mentions no exceptional treatment for illegal aliens:



AB 353 (Allen and Cedillo): Vehicles: checkpoints. (California Assembly Bill)

"On his final day to act on more than 140 bills, Gov. Jerry Brown on Sunday waded into sensitive areas of health care and law enforcement, signing a bill requiring health plans to cover a key autism treatment and another that protects illegal immigrant drivers at police checkpoints."

I am hoping that it is indeed a typo..​

 

[mgenet]

im so sick of this illegal immigration issue. seriously, send them home. it doesnt matter if they were raised here. send them home to country of origin/birth. and no more anchor babies. this b/s has gone on for way too long. its not racism, its the law. go somewhere else if you cant deal with it.

Aren't we all immigrants?

I am originally from France. Or my family was.
Came over here at the end of the 1700s.

Why the hell did we leave Europe?

Do we have to pay for our way back or will
the US Government help us pay our way back?

 

[Caoimhin]

Aren't we all immigrants?

I am originally from France. Or my family was.
Came over here at the end of the 1700s.

Why the hell did we leave Europe?

Do we have to pay for our way back or will
the US Government help us pay our way back?

There are ILLEGAL and LEGAL immigrants.

 

[JerseyJettfan]

I don't disagree, but the chicken littles are making it sound like it's going to be in the millions and will bankrupt the state.

The simple fact is that, according to the source book I cited, only approximately 10% of children of illegal immigrants ever graduate from high school. And of those 10%, only approx. 10% (maybe less) of them ever go on to college.



Hello Pot, my name's Kettle.

Whatever. The way I see it we're all Humans no matter which Human defined nation or section of the Earth we come from. I just wish the aliens would hurry up and launch a full scale war against all Humans so that we finally have a common goal/enemy to fight.

Nearly ten years ago California was spending $8 Billion dollars a year on healthcare, education, and other services for ILLEGAL ALIENS (Crimigrants) and the costs have continued to rise as more arrive daily. It's time to end the infestation of this nation and sent them packing back to Old Mexico with just the clothes on their backs.