Custom built to vintage Specifications vs. counterfeit guitars

[gator payne]

As some of you know historically the center of my lutherie focus has been custom order acoustics. While I have built a few electrics each year for the past 20 years, the mainstay of my commissioned was acoustic. Nearly a year ago I made the choice to shift my focus more toward electric builds. My intent was to develop a few personally designed model electric guitars and to offer custom wood, appointment, and inlay option based off them. I am still in the process of the R&D phase on a couple of these planed models. However after joining this forum I have received several inquires and orders for custom commission work. Being a custom build luthier I have addressed these inquires for now just as I would an acoustic inquiry. With the willingness to build almost anything a client may wants until I have my new product line developed any way.

That said I have found myself writing a bunch of quotes and having a ton of telephone time with prospective clients that I know early on going in that I cannot give them what they want because they are looking for Gibson Logo’d replica. Right now about 80% of the quotation inquiries I am getting are for either 56 or 59 standard replicas or 60 to 62 SG replicas. That in itself is not bad as I love doing vintage spec builds but about 80% of the replica inquiries I get the client is absolutely wanting Gibson logo and oak leaf inlay.

Of course I tell each of them that I cannot and will not build them a guitar that has a Gibson logo, Oak leaf inlay or anything that tries to identify the guitar as Gibson or any other manufacture and that they will not find a reputable luthier willing to do so. When I do this I am hearing the same response. “I see luthiers on all the forum building Gibson logo’d replicas all the time”. If I have heard that once I have heard it 50 times and that is why I am post this.

After dealing with a couple irate prospective clients that called me full of crap and such over this I have decided to decline all replica builds from here out. I truly love building to vintage specs but right now anyway it is seeming to me that most of the prospective clients contacting me are not so much interested in a guitar built to vintage specifications but rather much more interested in have a counterfeit vintage Gibson built for them.

While I do understand why some builders build historic replicas for them self and why they attach all the Gibson adornments including logos. It is not so obvious to random lurkers on the site that these are person use only guitars and will never or at least should never come to the retail market. I have no issue with this kind of build being posted here. But would like to say that a disclaimer would be a good thing to include so that the general public does not thing that they can get a luthier to build them a counterfeit Gibson, Fender or PRS.

 

[gator payne]

never mind

 

[captcoolaid]

Gator I agree with you on this. I too would love to have a replica with the Gibby logo on it but not the actual logo and definitely would have to have a tell tell sign on it that you built it. Maybe on the Holly put GP instead of LP on it, for that matter screw the Gibby logo all together why should they get the credit for a better built guitar.

 

[EagleOnyx]

I'd want a Gator built replica to say Gator on it!

If I were to ever build a " '59 Replica" I'd feel it necessary to inlay or ink my signature or something on the backside of the headstock to symbolize that I've built the damn thing myself.

 

[gator payne]

My opinion if I want a vintage spec build for my self I will not say gibson anywhere. To me it is the design attributes of the instrument not the maker that is important

To me a custom vintage spec build is all about the things that made that model great sonicly. In other words the physical attributes that made tht guitar perform the way it did. Built to vintage spec is great. but they don need to be hyped beyond the quaility of the design by putting Gibson, Fendor or any other companies name on them other than the luthier tht actually built that specific guitar to the vintage specifications.

 

[gator payne]

I'd want a Gator built replica to say Gator on it!

If I were to ever build a " '59 Replica" I'd feel it necessary to inlay or ink my signature or something on the backside of the headstock to symbolize that I've built the damn thing myself.

There you go

 

[stmfitr636]

Surely someone can inlay a piece of MOP in a headstock if they so desperately wanted it (gold script decal aswell).

How do you feel about a open book headstock treatment with no finish headstock? (no, I'm not asking for one.)

 

[Jessenoah]

at least for me, a gibson logo isnt enough, the skinny font of the gibson has to be right



it isnt about who built it IMO, it is about a guitar built to 50s specs, the logos, fonts, scripts etc are part of the equation!

YMMV

 

[gator payne]

Surely someone can inlay a piece of MOP in a headstock if they so desperately wanted it (gold script decal aswell).

How do you feel about a open book headstock treatment with no finish headstock? (no, I'm not asking for one.)

Well if in it only for the money I guess that would be a reasonable out for a luthier. But I would not want to build guitars that I could not stand behind and I could not offer a warrantee on such an instrument because it is to be altered by the client. Besides I want my name going on my work. Even if it is a vintage spec build.

 

[gator payne]

at least for me, a gibson logo isnt enough, the skinny font of the gibson has to be right



it isnt about who built it IMO, it is about a guitar built to 50s specs, the logos, fonts, scripts etc are part of the equation!



YMMV

So the question is if you were approched to build Gibson logo'd 50's replica for someone other than yourself and for a fee would you have quams about selling the guitar?

This topic is not about building one for your self it is about Luthiers built retailed guitars and clientel that wants the Gibson logo as much or more than a 50's specification build.

I could care less about personal built logo'd replicas. I would never use the Gibson logo on one of my personal builds but that neither here nor there as far as this topic is concerned.

to me this topic is about the shock I have that so many perspective commission clients think it is ok to have some luthier build them a counterfeit Gibson and the fact that in many cases having the Gibson Logo is more important than the things about the vintage build that made it infamous.This tells me it is more about the image than the substance.

It funny... in 20 years of custom acoustic building I never had one prospective client ask me to put a Martin logo on a Martin D18H spec build and I have built probably 60 Martin D18H specification builds over the years

 

[stmfitr636]

Different demographic, I presume.

 

[greenhorn]

If I wanted a replica I'd only want the specs to match. For all I care the headstock could be blank. IMHO someone who wants "Gibson" on the headstock just wants it there so they can re sell easier....or fu#Kin wicked OCD. YMMV.

You want the logo on the headstock then buy the real thing....why would you want a "fake" if you really need that logo so bad?

 

[jpftribe]

Well if in it only for the money I guess that would be a reasonable out for a luthier. But I would not want to build guitars that I could not stand behind and I could not offer a warrantee on such an instrument because it is to be altered by the client. Besides I want my name going on my work. Even if it is a vintage spec build.

As a buyer, I am 100% with you. I want the name of the builder on the headstock. The only way that should hurt the value of the guitar is if you were trying to pass it on as something it isn't.

 

[gator payne]

If I wanted a replica I'd only want the specs to match. For all I care the headstock could be blank. IMHO someone who wants "Gibson" on the headstock just wants it there so they can re sell easier....or fu#Kin wicked OCD. YMMV.

You want the logo on the headstock then buy the real thing....why would you want a "fake" if you really need that logo so bad?

Well in regards to a vintage instruments, lets say a 59 Standard you theoriticly could get a luther built and aged for around $5K+/- you cant touch the real thing in good condition for anywhere near $5K. So this is one of the few times where a luthier built is cheaper than the factory built. This is why this is becoming an issue to give concideration to.

 

['59_Standard]

If I wanted a replica I'd only want the specs to match. For all I care the headstock could be blank. IMHO someone who wants "Gibson" on the headstock just wants it there so they can re sell easier....or fu#Kin wicked OCD. YMMV.

You want the logo on the headstock then buy the real thing....why would you want a "fake" if you really need that logo so bad?

Some people have. And they don't want to take their real one on the road due to theft, transit damage or people salivating over it.

 

[slapshot]

how do any of these combos sit?seems to be the headstock is one of the biggest issues in building replicas
1.totally blank
2.les paul script (no model or anything extra)
3.les paul script & luthiers own name/logo on headstock
4.les paul script & luthiers name in a gibson font/style
5.luthiers name in a les paul style script blank headstock

personally i'll take #2 or 5 with no order of preference

 

[yeppedeppdepp]

I have never understood why my personal, handbuilt specially for me guitar should have the Gibson logo on it although it was built by someone who surely put more effort into it then any worker at the Gibson factory/ at the Gibson factory in 1952-1959.

Give credit where credit is due.

 

[gator payne]

how do any of these combos sit?seems to be the headstock is one of the biggest issues in building replicas
1.totally blank
2.les paul script (no model or anything extra)
3.les paul script & luthiers own name/logo on headstock
4.les paul script & luthiers name in a gibson font/style
5.luthiers name in a les paul style script blank headstock

personally i'll take #2 or 5 with no order of preference

personally on the vintage spec builds this is what I do
you get my logo, on my peghead shape with one of my serial numbers. the guitar is built to vintage specification with the exception of the peghead shape. But all documentation, bill of sale model # and serial number. for instance lets assume I am building a client a 59 LP standard. The bill of sale and warrentee document will show "LP59STD" as the model#, Also on the bill of sale, warrentee document and stamped on the back of the peghead is "2011-21", that is the serial # (year built and the 21st of the bench that year).

That is all I offer I do not offer the Les Paul model script or any other Gibson peghead details. To me the peghead is not what made the 59 the guitar it is known for. like I said i am not building a replica. I am building a to vintage spec custom build but by me.

 

[ievans]

Some people have. And they don't want to take their real one on the road due to theft, transit damage or people salivating over it.

That probably describes about 0.02% of the people who want a replica build with the Gibson marks.

I'm puzzled why all these guys that want counterfeit Gibsons built to vintage specs don't just talk to the Gibson custom shop.

 

[slapshot]

didn't mean you specifically just maybe builders in general

and maybe they'd rather support an independent luthier than the gibson corporation thats completely lost it's way.I know I would