Critics don't like "The Rise of Skywalker". 57% on rotten tomatoes.

MikeyTheCat

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Are they? CGI Leia looked significantly better in RoSW. In the previous movies, the CGI characters were obvious. I can't tell anymore
damn, you’re right. What if even Mal’s Island is just CGI
?
 

ErictheRed

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I finally watched the movie tonight (thanks Malikon!) with the wife, and had a lot of fun. With that said, we both thought that the movie sucked. Not as bad as TLJ, but it still sucked. Still, after TLJ it was basically an impossible task to bring this story to a good resolution.
 

ErictheRed

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It's always been an issue with Return of the Jedi. Palpatine tries to tempt Luke but he doesn't really have anything to tempt him with, and his claim that killing him would cause Luke to fall to the Dark Side lacks needed explanation. Vader is much better at pulling Luke to the Dark Side, but again it doesn't really makes sense: He goads Luke into using his anger to destroy him but then when he gets his ass kicked he doesn't seem very happy about it.

I think that they intended the Dark Side to be analogous to drug addiction or mental illness. You don't fall to the Dark Side because you're evil, falling to the Dark Side makes you evil. That's the only way anything Palpatine does in that movie makes sense to me. I think the idea is that were Luke to assassinate Palpatine it would open himself up to the Dark Side, which would corrupt him. Along the same thread, Darth Vader is not a truly evil man as much as he is a victim of the Dark Side - he wants to be good and join Luke but the Dark Side is too powerful for him to break free of its influence. I think this is a creative decision made during the production of Jedi, when they decided to make Vader a sympathetic figure. In Empire Vader says "You don't know the power of the Dark Side" as a means of temptation, but when he says it again in Jedi it takes on new meaning: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side, I must obey my master."

It's just one of those underwitten things, like how Jedi training in the Original Trilogy is really just reprogramming your mind to give up your preconceived notions of what is and isn't possible and to trust in your instincts, no matter how far fetched they seem, and it's not a matter of doing Force Reps to bulk up your Force Biceps and log Force Points into your Force Skill Tree like all the later movies and video games say it is.
This is a really thoughtful post. I have always felt the same way about the Dark Side, and it's too bad that later movies changed things so much.
 

OldBenKenobi

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This is a really thoughtful post. I have always felt the same way about the Dark Side, and it's too bad that later movies changed things so much.
The nature of the Force itself changed through the movies.

In this first movie its powers are so subtle its existence can be doubted by cynics like Han Solo. It's most visible uses are Obi-Wan and Vader using hypnosis to make Stormtroopers hear and see things, and to make Admiral Motti think he can't breathe. Other than that it's just super instincts. Easily written off as a bunch of luck, tricks and nonsense. The Force came off as more of an actual religion, with non-believers unable to use its power. Han Solo could never be a Jedi not because the Force isn't strong with him, or because he lacks the midichlorians needed, but because he's too jaded to trust in it.

Empire made the Force an actual superpower. Vader is no longer using hypnotic suggesting to make someone not breathe with a hand gesture, he's actually choking them with his mind through video screens. Once Luke summoned his lightsaber to his hand the entire game changed. Now not even the most skeptical person could ever realistically doubt the existence of the Force. Instead of being a band of religious knights who claim their faith gives them power, the Jedi Knights became undeniably superpowered warriors.
 

strat1701

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In this first movie its powers are so subtle its existence can be doubted by cynics like Han Solo. It's most visible uses are Obi-Wan and Vader using hypnosis to make Stormtroopers hear and see things, and to make Admiral Motti think he can't breathe.
I always thought Vader 'force choked' Admiral Motti in ANH and Tarkin tells Vader to stop it. Then he does the same in ESB, he force chokes Captain Needa....Both things are physical manifestations of the force manipulating matter, vs. the force making you think you're choking. Vader uses his command of the force over small physical things in these cases. Same with Director Krennic. Obi-Wan, and Yoda were more masters of force 'projecting' IMHO. And then obviously Luke, but since we don't agree that ever happened, we're not gonna talk about Luke and his use of force projection....
 

OldBenKenobi

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I always thought Vader 'force choked' Admiral Motti in ANH and Tarkin tells Vader to stop it. Then he does the same in ESB, he force chokes Captain Needa....Both things are physical manifestations of the force manipulating matter, vs. the force making you think you're choking. Vader uses his command of the force over small physical things in these cases. Same with Director Krennic. Obi-Wan, and Yoda were more masters of force 'projecting' IMHO. And then obviously Luke, but since we don't agree that ever happened!!
It's just my interpretation of the scene, so YMMV.

Compare Vader choking Motti:


to Vader choking Ozzel:


When Vader chokes Motti he holds his hand up as if pinching his throat. When Vader chokes Ozzel (and later on, Needa) he doesn't use any gesture. Why? Because in Empire the Force was re-established as a telekinetic power, while in A New Hope there was only one scene where the Force resembled telekinesis, which is the Motti scene. To me, it bears closer resemblance to what Obi-Wan did in Mos Eisley:


It makes more sense to me than it does to have just one telekinetic power among many more ethereal powers, and it's more consistent to have the existence of the Force be believably ambiguous within its own universe. To use the Force you must have faith in the Force. This is more meaningful when you can't prove the Force is a real thing. All of the Force's ambiguity went away in Empire. For example, when Luke is trying to destroy the Death Star he hears Obi-Wan's voice in his head. Is the spirit of Obi-Wan speaking to him, or is Luke just imagining it? In Empire Obi-Wan appears to him as a ghost and they have a conversation. It's a testament to the strength of Empire that they were able to have their cake and eat it: When Luke is shown the greatest display of the Force's abilities in the entire trilogy, his X-Wing being lifted from the swamp, his reaction is "I don't believe it."

Now obviously this is just what I think, and whether I'm right or wrong there's no denying that audiences today are supposed to see it as Vader closing Motti's windpipe.

All of this got ramped way up in the prequels. One of the biggest sins was the Emperor's lightning. In Return of the Jedi the Emperor tortures Luke by shooting lightning out of his hands. In the context of that movie it's just one cool thing the Emperor does. Then in Attack of the Clones it's revealed that Count Dooku can do it too, and rather than simply being the Emperor's whim in one moment it's a standard Force Power that anyone can apparently learn. So we've gone from the Force being an ethereal aura that might not even exist, to the Force giving its users superpowers, to the Force being a stock set of super powers.
 

rxbandit

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It's just my interpretation of the scene, so YMMV.

Compare Vader choking Motti:


to Vader choking Ozzel:


When Vader chokes Motti he holds his hand up as if pinching his throat. When Vader chokes Ozzel (and later on, Needa) he doesn't use any gesture. Why? Because in Empire the Force was re-established as a telekinetic power, while in A New Hope there was only one scene where the Force resembled telekinesis, which is the Motti scene. To me, it bears closer resemblance to what Obi-Wan did in Mos Eisley:


It makes more sense to me than it does to have just one telekinetic power among many more ethereal powers, and it's more consistent to have the existence of the Force be believably ambiguous within its own universe. To use the Force you must have faith in the Force. This is more meaningful when you can't prove the Force is a real thing. All of the Force's ambiguity went away in Empire. For example, when Luke is trying to destroy the Death Star he hears Obi-Wan's voice in his head. Is the spirit of Obi-Wan speaking to him, or is Luke just imagining it? In Empire Obi-Wan appears to him as a ghost and they have a conversation. It's a testament to the strength of Empire that they were able to have their cake and eat it: When Luke is shown the greatest display of the Force's abilities in the entire trilogy, his X-Wing being lifted from the swamp, his reaction is "I don't believe it."

Now obviously this is just what I think, and whether I'm right or wrong there's no denying that audiences today are supposed to see it as Vader closing Motti's windpipe.

All of this got ramped way up in the prequels. One of the biggest sins was the Emperor's lightning. In Return of the Jedi the Emperor tortures Luke by shooting lightning out of his hands. In the context of that movie it's just one cool thing the Emperor does. Then in Attack of the Clones it's revealed that Count Dooku can do it too, and rather than simply being the Emperor's whim in one moment it's a standard Force Power that anyone can apparently learn. So we've gone from the Force being an ethereal aura that might not even exist, to the Force giving its users superpowers, to the Force being a stock set of super powers.



:laugh2: :laugh2: jk man, I love nerding out too
 

strat1701

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It's just my interpretation of the scene, so YMMV.

Compare Vader choking Motti:


to Vader choking Ozzel:


When Vader chokes Motti he holds his hand up as if pinching his throat. When Vader chokes Ozzel (and later on, Needa) he doesn't use any gesture. Why? Because in Empire the Force was re-established as a telekinetic power, while in A New Hope there was only one scene where the Force resembled telekinesis, which is the Motti scene. To me, it bears closer resemblance to what Obi-Wan did in Mos Eisley:


It makes more sense to me than it does to have just one telekinetic power among many more ethereal powers, and it's more consistent to have the existence of the Force be believably ambiguous within its own universe. To use the Force you must have faith in the Force. This is more meaningful when you can't prove the Force is a real thing. All of the Force's ambiguity went away in Empire. For example, when Luke is trying to destroy the Death Star he hears Obi-Wan's voice in his head. Is the spirit of Obi-Wan speaking to him, or is Luke just imagining it? In Empire Obi-Wan appears to him as a ghost and they have a conversation. It's a testament to the strength of Empire that they were able to have their cake and eat it: When Luke is shown the greatest display of the Force's abilities in the entire trilogy, his X-Wing being lifted from the swamp, his reaction is "I don't believe it."

Now obviously this is just what I think, and whether I'm right or wrong there's no denying that audiences today are supposed to see it as Vader closing Motti's windpipe.

All of this got ramped way up in the prequels. One of the biggest sins was the Emperor's lightning. In Return of the Jedi the Emperor tortures Luke by shooting lightning out of his hands. In the context of that movie it's just one cool thing the Emperor does. Then in Attack of the Clones it's revealed that Count Dooku can do it too, and rather than simply being the Emperor's whim in one moment it's a standard Force Power that anyone can apparently learn. So we've gone from the Force being an ethereal aura that might not even exist, to the Force giving its users superpowers, to the Force being a stock set of super powers.

Fair enough. I can see how it can be seen this way.

You didn't post this one :D

 

OldBenKenobi

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Fair enough. I can see how it can be seen this way.

You didn't post this one :D

I didn't post it because Vader's hands are out of frame so it can't be used to argue for or against.

It's one of my favorite scenes though.




:laugh2: :laugh2: jk man, I love nerding out too
I don't really nerd out over the actual stuff in the movies, but about the actual writing and production of the movies. I'm fascinated by the developmental process of each movie, and how the stories changed and evolved.

Star Wars was a standalone adventure movie. Empire Strikes Back was meant to be more of the same (a cash grab by Lucas to fund the creation of Skywalker Ranch) and almost by accident was elevated to a new level of drama. Return of the Jedi was thrown together to wrap the story up and make a lot of money in merchandising. Against all odds it became the gold standard of a movie trilogy.
 

OldBenKenobi

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hey but ROTJ gave us Slave Leia....so story/directing/scriptwriting be dammed......

to the fap cave!!!!!!!!!!
That was the start of the tonal schizophrenia that infected the prequels. Ewoks for the kids, Slave Leia for the adults. After that it was Natalie Portman's gowns for the little girls, Natalie Portman's midriff for the men, Jar-Jar Binks for the tiny kids, Samuel L. Jackson for the black people, "I hate sand" for the teenaged girls and double-bladed lightsabers for the virgins.
 

strat1701

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IIRC, weren't the ewok's born out of frustration in that it proved too difficult to have an entire planet of wookies, so Lucas decided to nix that idea and come up with smaller creatures....ewoks....yub nub.....
 

OldBenKenobi

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IIRC, weren't the ewok's born out of frustration in that it proved too difficult to have an entire planet of wookies, so Lucas decided to nix that idea and come up with smaller creatures....ewoks....yub nub.....
That's the official story, and it may be the truth from a certain point of view, but what I see is this:

Wookiees are expensive and George doesn't see any need to spend more money to make a movie better than it has to be (this attitude is what caused the rift between him and Gary Kurtz during the production of Empire), while Ewoks are cheap and have massive merchandising potential. In the end, George just wanted to make more money.

It's the same reason Han Solo doesn't die at the end of Jedi. Han Solo's character development was basically finished in Empire: He's gone from an apathetic smuggler to a Rebel hero and he and Leia are openly in love with each other. The only thing left for his character is for him to sacrifice himself to save his friends, the ultimate show of how far he has come. But George felt it would be difficult to sell toys of a dead Han Solo so instead he stayed alive and spent the last 45 minutes of the movie lurking in a doorway.
 

dro

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I Don't get it, Tried to get interested. Lost interest about half way through Return Of The Jedi.
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Live Long And Prosper
 

RedSkwirrell

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Went to see Rise Of Skywalker yesterday and thought it was the best one of the three (7, 8, and 9), and the first three (1, 2, and 3).
Dunno why nobody else seemed to like it.
Didn't capture the essence of the originals (4,5, and 6), but I didn't expect it to.
Only another twenty years to go until they resurrect it again.
I might even still be around.
:D
 


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